Flechette vs. Mystic Armor/Armor Spell, Do those qualify as "rigid" for rules' sake? Options

[jaellot]

Was flipping through the books, arming some goons, when I came upon this notion. For those powers there isn't a description of how it makes the armor points, it just does it.

On one hand, I'd like to think things like worn armor, and Dermal Plating, would be rigid. Maybe exclude clothing and jumpsuits from it.

But Orthoskin is, well, skin. Sure it's armor, point-wise, but I wouldn't give it the description of rigid. Bone Lacing? Hmm, sure. It's not got much of a choice but to be.

As for the magic, I don't know which way to lean. Or, I guess I don't have a good argument for why it isn't considered rigid for Flechette round purposes, which is what I would need. See, I got a PC whose trick is just this. He has Mystic Armor, and managed to get another PC to Quicken Armor on him. And that's it. He runs around, with this mojo armor stacked, whooping ass. I don't want it to sound like I'm targeting him, but as I said, it got me thinking.

While I'm thinking about it, how about Stick and Shock/Tasers, and what not? It's direct skin contact, so there shouldn't be 1/2 impact, now should there? Hmm...

[Mäx]

What does rigidity of armor got to do with anythink.
Armor is armor and if the target has a minimum 0f 1 point impact armor she'll get +5 to it against flechette ammo.

But i do gatta say that your player is pretty "stupid" for not wearing armor too, it would after all stack with both of those other thinks.

[J. Packer]

Yeah, reading the description again, they do say "rigid" but then go on to say that flechette ammo adds 5 to the DR of any Impact armor, and is resisted by Impact armor. The notion of Impact = "rigid" is implied in the mechanics, but I can totally see where the confusion came from.

[jaellot]

Well, some people "role" play a character that is not merely the sum of the numbers on a sheet, others waste theirs and other's time by trying to get the same gratification that could be gotten from any FPS where you "sh00t de newbz".

The inclusion of the word "rigid" was interesting, implying that there is armor that isn't that. Oh well.

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

Well, some people "role" play a character that is not merely the sum of the numbers on a sheet, others waste theirs and other's time by trying to get the same gratification that could be gotten from any FPS where you "sh00t de newbz".

The inclusion of the word "rigid" was interesting, implying that there is armor that isn't that. Oh well.

There is fluf and there is crunch. It is usually good that fluf and crunch walkn side-by-side, but from a game mechanics point of view, the game is ruled by the use of their keywords and sintax, in this case, if you have armor 100/0, it does nothing against flechette, if the armor is 0/1, you gain a +5 bonus to armor.

[Udoshi]

There is fluf and there is crunch. It is usually good that fluf and crunch walkn side-by-side, but from a game mechanics point of view, the game is ruled by the use of their keywords and sintax, in this case, if you have armor 100/0, it does nothing against flechette, if the armor is 0/1, you gain a +5 bonus to armor.

Ironically, it means a dude with decent body in a leather jacket(2/2, which goes to 9 armor against flechette) has a good chance of soaking shotgun rounds, particularly if they're older models that, say, can't adjust their choke.

Somehow, I don't think it works that way in the real world.

[Whipstitch]

I always thought the REALLY dumb part of that was how much credit they're giving a leather jacket. Unless you're talking about a buff coat or at least racing leathers it's not really going to be any different from regular clothing. One thing I've considered is not allowing the bonus from the AP exceed the base armor value. So an armored jacket will still give you 11 dice but a naked troll is no longer rolling a minimum of 11 dice vs. flechettes thanks to his dermal deposits.

This post has been edited by Whipstitch: Dec 3 2010, 09:10 PM

[Mäx]

Ironically, it means a dude with decent body in a leather jacket(2/2, which goes to 9 armor against flechette) has a good chance of soaking shotgun rounds, particularly if they're older models that, say, can't adjust their choke.

If by decent body you mean 21, then yeah.
Shotgun does 9P damage with shot ammo meaning you need on average 27 dice to soak that:
the AP+4(most shotguns have base AP-1) raises that 2 armor to 6 leaving you to need 27-6=21 body dice to soak that hit.

[Whipstitch]

Yeah, and that's not even counting the fact that net hits will make it hurt even worse.

[Aberrant]

If by decent body you mean 21, then yeah.
Shotgun does 9P damage with shot ammo meaning you need on average 27 dice to soak that:
the AP+4(most shotguns have base AP-1) raises that 2 armor to 6 leaving you to need 27-6=21 body dice to soak that hit.

I don't think it is a +4 modifier, I think the AP damage for flechette/shot ammo replaces the -1 with a +5

[Whipstitch]

That certainly seems to be what the Anniversary edition DV from the Mossberg AM-CMDT implies.

[Udoshi]

One thing I've considered is not allowing the impact penalty exceed the base armor value. So an armored jacket will still give you 11 dice but a buck naked troll is no longer rolling a minimum of 11 dice vs. flechettes.

Honestly, this seems like a really solid fix. Flechette rounds are supposed to stop working/bounce off against heavily armored opponents, while being effective against lightly armored opponents.

The problem being that 'lightly armored' in shadowrun is anyone with 1 ballistic to rub against their 1 impact. Not the more accurate 1-5 (heck, steampunk clothing goes up to 7) range of armor that can't protect you from any real damage.

[Mäx]

That certainly seems to be what the Anniversary edition DV from the Mossberg AM-CMDT implies.

The AP values of listed for guns that have lines for both normal and flechette ammo have consistantly been wrong sinse the first printing of the corebook.
In the ammunition part of the gear section it very clearly says:
"The ammunition’s Damage Modifier and
AP Modifier are added to the weapon’s usual DV
and AP "
So the shotgun that has -1AP using shot ammo has a AP+4.

[Yerameyahu]

Armor is armor, and 'rigid' isn't a referenced value. I agree with Udoshi: the problem is flechette. Flechettes are *meant* to pierce armor, at least better than shot. SR simply replaced the word 'shot' with 'flechette', and then made it even less effective. :/

[Aberrant]

The AP values of listed for guns that have lines for both normal and flechette ammo have consistantly been wrong sinse the first printing of the corebook.
In the ammunition part of the gear section it very clearly says:
"The ammunition’s Damage Modifier and
AP Modifier are added to the weapon’s usual DV
and AP "
So the shotgun that has -1AP using shot ammo has a AP+4.

Huh, now that I think about it, I mean if you put EX-Explosive in a heavy pistol, you get 6P, -2 AP. And the pre-coded shotguns tend to only give flechette ammo a +2AP modifier for whatever reason.

[Yerameyahu]

Depends on which printing you look at. Mäx meant to say that it's been *inconsistently* wrong. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Mäx]

Depends on which printing you look at. Mäx meant to say that it's been *inconsistently* wrong. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

No i definitely meant consistently, as in it has never been correct. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Yerameyahu]

Ahh, but it's been different kinds of incorrect. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Tyro]

Honestly, this seems like a really solid fix. Flechette rounds are supposed to stop working/bounce off against heavily armored opponents, while being effective against lightly armored opponents.

The problem being that 'lightly armored' in shadowrun is anyone with 1 ballistic to rub against their 1 impact. Not the more accurate 1-5 (heck, steampunk clothing goes up to 7) range of armor that can't protect you from any real damage.

Agreed.