Shooting at Armored Vehicles, How can you do damage without Big Guns? Options

[Krojar]

So my friend is playing a wheelman and is driving a souped up SUV. He piled on 16 armor and with a 13 body I discovered, reviewing the vehicle rules, that any incoming damage would need to go through 29 dice...that's next to impossible for any weapon to penetrate. Am I reading things wrong or how can I give an NPC a chance to put the car in real danger (though obviously not a way to destroy it immidietly).

[sabs]

Firstly anything less than 16 DV just bounces.

That being said.

A panther assault cannon needs 2 net hits to do damage.
A heavy machine gun, shooting ADPS sits at 7P -7AP

So you need 2 net hits with a heavy machine gun to start doing damage. Add slong narrow bursts (which do not add to armor defeating) and you can be doing 16P damage.

29 dice is ~7-10 hits. so you're doing anywhere between 5 to 9 boxes of damage a round. 8+13/2=14 boxes on that SUV. 3-4 rounds and you can total that vehicle.

But sure, if you're using a 5p SMG with -2AP. You need 9 hits to do any damage at all.

Vehicles have pseudo hardened armor. If you do less damage than their armor rating, they take 0 damage.

[Mäx]

So my friend is playing a wheelman and is driving a souped up SUV. He piled on 16 armor and with a 13 body I discovered, reviewing the vehicle rules, that any incoming damage would need to go through 29 dice...that's next to impossible for any weapon to penetrate. Am I reading things wrong or how can I give an NPC a chance to put the car in real danger (though obviously not a way to destroy it immidietly).

The 29 soak dice aint really the problem, thats only around 10 damage soaked on avarage.
The problem is the need to penetrate the 16 points of armor, as vehicles are immune to stun damage.

Edit: Or what Sabs said (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[SpellBinder]

Depending on how souped up the SUV is, spike strip, zapper strip, EMP grenades, and the ever popular hacking. Not too familiar on the magic in this aspect, but a conjured stink cloud inside the SUV can also be a problem. On a sneaker note, a free sprite or A.I. could take up residence in the SUV. If your wheelman skimped on the restraints a rollover or other such wreck could mean for a very bad day for everyone involved.

It also depends on how discrete this SUV is with its extra armor. Local LEOs might raise an eye when they see it. That is, unless your wheelman spent the extra nuyen for concealed armor. Then there's the access ID of the SUV, as it won't matter if it's got a chameleon coating or not if the SUV's node can be identified by anyone with a commlink.

These alternatives are hard to figure considering we don't know the full specs of this SUV.

[Yerameyahu]

Small arms really shouldn't be able to hurt armored vehicles, so it's good that it works that way. LAW rockets are pretty cheap, or car bombs, or road blocks, or hacking…

[sabs]

concealed armor only goes to rating 10.

After that it's all unconcealed.
a rotating license, or spoofing the access ID of your vehicle is pretty trivial. The hardware version only costs like 300 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif)

[AppliedCheese]

Isn't there an optional armor degradation rule somewhere? It seems to me, being as your SUV is not in fact a tank with a meter of chobham, if a machinegun hammers on it long enough, the armor should start to degrade. Especially with some of the nastier rounds.

Or, for the poor man's solution, 2 :(IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) : of gas in a glass bottle. Molotov time. Sure, it won't "penetrate", but its a safe assumption that splashed on the hood the following will happen:

a) It'll be very hard to drive. Especially if you were using thermals.

b) If there is any grill, cracks in the hood for opening it, or generally anyplace liquid can work its way in, the fire will have a chance to spread to that place.

c) Any outsider peripherals in the area are generally going to be having a bad day.

d) The SUV on fire, or with the giant black scorch marks, its a pretty easy to identify thing. And probably causes some WTF moments for LEOs.

[Adarael]

Here's a fast way: ram him.

Seriously. Have the opposition - especially if it's police or anyone who knows their target is an armored SUV - add a ram plate to their car, use a good rigger, and t-bone him. Especially if they can surprise him, you will probably demolish the shit out of him and/or his vehicle. Make sure beforehand you know who's wearng seat belts and who isn't, btw. If anyone is hanging out the side or the back shooting with small arms, they will probably become jelly.

Second option: drop explosives on the road in front of him, and blow them up as he drives over. Not only is that kinda thing an automatic crash test, but remember the "blast against barriers" rules. Explosives become dangerously powerful in confined spaces. Such as between a car, the road, and the retaining wall off to one side.

That said, why bother trying to penetrate his car? Unless he does something to warrant pulling out anti-tank weaponry, there's no reason to get heavy on him; he's shelled out all this money and time for an armored car, and all it's doing is being armored. If I was say, Lone Star, and I saw this car? I'd go, "Ahh, to hell with this," and just tag his ass with a GPS tracker or something. And then let the guys in the actual APC which has a turret-mounted rail gun handle it.

This is true in reverse, too: sometimes the players will attack a vehicle they can't hurt. This will piss them the hell off.

[kzt]

The main issue everyone in your game has to realize is that anything that can penetrate his vehicle armor will probably kill everyone in the vehicle. Either as the result of the rocket damage or the crash following.

[pbangarth]

The main issue everyone in your game has to realize is that anything that can penetrate his vehicle armor will probably kill everyone in the vehicle. Either as the result of the rocket damage or the crash following.

However true this may be, it does not have the corollary, "If you drive around in a vulnerable car, you will not be attacked by something that can kill you."

[Saint Sithney]

Elemental effects can ruin his vehicle and not necessarily pose a terrible risk to the occupants.

Just look at the stuff that halves armor.
radiation damage - redline laser
fire damage - siawase blazer

Or, there's always the blast rules.

A grenade or charge directly under the car will count as tamped and double its damage output from blast reflection. So that 60 yen HE grenade now has a damage code of 20DV -2AP when its under the car. Though everyone in the vehicle without a rigger cocoon is going to get fried since both explosives and full auto fire are targeted at the vehicle and the passengers at the same time.

[Sephiroth]

You could also just have an air or fire spirit materialize inside the vehicle. No armor penetration of any kind required.

[Yerameyahu]

That's debatable, Saint Sithney. Most people don't assume that any grenade use gets double damage from ground reflection. Yes, the rules are very unclear, but that's no reason to mess everything up. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Still, a grenade under an armored-but-civilian vehicle should get *some* love from the GM.

[Tiralee]

[quote]You could also just have an air or fire spirit materialize inside the vehicle. No armor penetration of any kind required. ]/quote]
-For the truth, that. Since the dawn of time, riggers and elementals have hated and battled each other. And nothing says, "I hate you" than a high-force lightning bolt on a rigger-equipped vehicle.

Apart from that, it has to go somewhere, wreck road (Urban Renewal is the SR3 spell, isn't it?), Ice and Illusion (Trid fantasm, due to the sensors?) all conspire to ruin someone's day. Hell, do wreck road and then ice it for fun and games.

The Spirits get confusion (Although a rigger should have SOME decent Will) and that's hilarous for anyone following the now-swerving vehicle as the rigger screams at the spiders trying to eat his face.

Every time someone makes a better tank, 4 cheap-ass options (in combination) will ruin their day.

-Tir.

[Sephiroth]

You could also just have an air or fire spirit materialize inside the vehicle. No armor penetration of any kind required.

-For the truth, that. Since the dawn of time, riggers and elementals have hated and battled each other. And nothing says, "I hate you" than a high-force lightning bolt on a rigger-equipped vehicle.

Apart from that, it has to go somewhere, wreck road (Urban Renewal is the SR3 spell, isn't it?), Ice and Illusion (Trid fantasm, due to the sensors?) all conspire to ruin someone's day. Hell, do wreck road and then ice it for fun and games.

The Spirits get confusion (Although a rigger should have SOME decent Will) and that's hilarous for anyone following the now-swerving vehicle as the rigger screams at the spiders trying to eat his face.

Every time someone makes a better tank, 4 cheap-ass options (in combination) will ruin their day.

-Tir.

I understand that putting a big log or other large obstacle in the rigger's path and sustaining Invisibility on it can be a delightful tactic as well.

[Yerameyahu]

Most vehicles have radar, ultrasound, etc.

[Saint Sithney]

That's debatable, Saint Sithney. Most people don't assume that any grenade use gets double damage from ground reflection. Yes, the rules are very unclear, but that's no reason to mess everything up. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Still, a grenade under an armored-but-civilian vehicle should get *some* love from the GM.

Oh, yeah, usually the ground reflection should be taken into account as part of the base damage, but we're dealing with an armored target here. So, if the grenade doesn't have enough force to penetrate the vehicle's armor, then it is reflected back down, hits the ground and is reflected upwards again. Unless the vehicle is jacked up, this wouldn't really take a full meter of travel, so the concussive blast would then be x2. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Yerameyahu]

Given how messy the blast-reflection rules are to begin with, I'd probably just houserule a 'weak vehicle belly', but I see what you mean per RAW.

[kzt]

However true this may be, it does not have the corollary, "If you drive around in a vulnerable car, you will not be attacked by something that can kill you."

That's totally true. But players who haven't really played much seem to not figure out that if you flaunt your armored car part of the GMs job is to portray the NPCs who will decide to expeditiously deal with it, and the driver and other occupants will most likely not survive it being dealt with.

[Seth]

The spirit power accident forces the vehicle to have a crash test, and has a minus to skill of the spirits force

[Saint Sithney]

Given how messy the blast-reflection rules are to begin with, I'd probably just houserule a 'weak vehicle belly', but I see what you mean per RAW.

Yeah, a frag grenade blast in a confined space will bounce around enough to eventually bust down any level of barrier or armor. It's pretty dumb..

[KarmaInferno]

Target Passengers, Called Shot to avoid the Vehicle Armor.

Difficult but oh so satisfying to nail the driver with stick and shock, when his buddy cracks open a window to shoot.



-k

[Yerameyahu]

Exactly, Saint Sithney. I simply don't use the blast rules, because they make no sense and break parts of the game.

[Laodicea]

Laser pistol.

[Yerameyahu]

The laser pistol does 5P against 12 Body + 8 Armor at only SMG range. :/