Fighting Blind? Options

[Socinus]

I've been trying to work out a decent blind swordsman character (ala Zatoichi) and I cant really seem to find anything that will work without serious penalties. Working with an Adept, Blind Fight is for darkness modifiers and Motion Sense is more specifically for being blinded. It would seem that they should stack or even be the same thing.

[ProfGast]

AFB but IIRC astral perception gives just a blanket -2 penalty to physical actions?
'course it makes you dual natured while assensing too but that's a price you pay...
and you can assense blind

[Yerameyahu]

Why do you expect there should be a way to be blind without serious penalties? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Socinus]

Why do you expect there should be a way to be blind without serious penalties? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

The point is a Zatoichi-style character and I've been toying with the system to see if something like that was possible. I bounced it here to see if there was maybe something I was missing.

[Medicineman]

Ki-Power,Martial Arts Blind Fight & Thermosense are a good combination you'll be at -1 or -0 IIRC
works just as good against Invisible Enemies

with a Dance in the Dark
Medicineman

[mmmkay]

Ki-Power,Martial Arts Blind Fight & Thermosense are a good combination you'll be at -1 or -0 IIRC
works just as good against Invisible Enemies

with a Dance in the Dark
Medicineman

What is Ki-Power? I could find the other two things, but maybe you mean the adept power motion sense? Cool combination though. Astral perception also works but you suffer -2 instead of -1 with motion sense+thermosense+the martial art maneuver blind fighting.

You'll be rolling intuition instead of agility btw, which is going to be weird, because intuition can't get that high.

[Yerameyahu]

• MA Blind Fighting: "The modifier for attacking a hidden target (see Target Hidden (Blind Fire), p.141, SR4) in melee combat is reduced from –6 to –3."

• Adept Blind Fighting: "Blind Fighting reduces the penalties for full darkness modifiers to –4 (rather than –6)."

• Adept Motion Sense: "If the target is detected, reduce the dice pool modifiers for visibility or blind fire by 2."

So, Motion Sense should stack, but I can't really see MA and Adept Blind Fighting stacking (with each other).

Other options may include Ninjitsu (if the GM considers it a visibility mod).

If you're getting thermosense (which only gets you to the -6 to start with), it's almost not being blind any more, so you might as well get radar, ultrasound/echolocation, cameras, etc. Besides, you don't need the thermosense if you're using Motion Sense.

The cool way relies on nothing but natural human senses and magic. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) So, you're at a -1 within like 25 feet, which is pretty good for a blind guy. Zatoichi probably just dealt with that -1 by having really high skill ratings, after all. Bonus: there's no munchkinry in stacking MA Blind Fighting with Motion Sense, because they clearly stack *and* apply to Blind combat, no darkness/visibility trickery. Personally, I'd probably allow Ninjitsu to stack (to -0), and don't forget that you're limited (Magic) meters and can't fail the roll.

[mmmkay]

What is ki-power? I tried searching for it and got nothin'. And you can't search for "ki power" so yea...

Does anyone know?

[Summerstorm]

I am sure he meant the ki-power blind fighting, which has already been expanded on by my collegue Yaremeyahu there. I can't find anything to add to his post.

Just an advice: you can also get some of the dice back you have lost through "visibility modifiers" with reach. A telescopic staff i find is a cool and fitting weapon for a blind martial artist.

Hm, i played a blind fighter in SR3 once... great fun... but the modifiers were harsher back then.

EDIT: ah wait maybe there is ONE thing i can add:

You might go the route as follows.. (needs adaptation and approvel of your gm though): Have drones fly around you and be in a tacnet with them (you will need trodenets, datajack or implanted comlink or something) And let them help you with "indirect fire" adapted for melee combat *g*

Hm, i am sure the people with the pitchforks and torches will be here shortly... i better run.

[Yerameyahu]

Yeah, but if you're using drones in a TacNet, you might as well just use your own sensors, like above. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) UWB Radar, done.

[Medicineman]

What is ki-power? I tried searching for it and got nothin'. And you can't search for "ki power" so yea...

Does anyone know?

Sorry for not explaining it (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
in German Ki-Kraft means the different Adept Powers/Abilities and is translated as Ki-Power

I meant the Adept Power Blind fighting
it reduces the Darkness Mod by 2 (from -6 ---> -4)
that combined with Martial Arts Blind fighting (reduces -6 ---> -3) adds up in a Total -1
combine that with the Thermo Sense (and or Motion Sense) and you can show Zatoichi,Daredevil and any Grammaton Cleric how to fight in complete Darkness (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif) (well at least in MAG Rating Meter Radius)

with a Dance (alone) in the Dark
Medicineman

[mmmkay]

Technically having the adept power and the maneuver for blind fighting means:

In non-melee full darkness is at -4
in melee full darkness is at -3.

Those powers do not stack, but I suppose you could houserule otherwise.

[Medicineman]

Well for Me they stack unless the Rules say otherwise
All of the Synergy Bonuses (Boni ? ) stack unless explicitely written otherwise

with a Synergy Dance
Medicineman

[ProfGast]

I think the deal here is that the abilities in question aren't actually a bonus. They reduce a specific penalty to a specific value instead of just adding a bonus.

[Makki]

one could just get Heightened Concentration with Magic 6 and four IPs. you concentrate before every attack and then ignore your negative modifier of -6. that's still at least 2 attacks per combat round.
Or you get adept centering and initiate 6 times (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

a combination might be best.
Ninjutsu + Blind Fighting Maneuver + Initiate grade 2 is probably my favourite

[Yerameyahu]

Exactly, ProfGast. The rules *do* specifically say otherwise, Medicineman. You can certainly houserule that away, but it seems perhaps too strong. The -6 for blind is probably too small a penalty to start with, and getting it to 0 pretty easily seems unreasonable.

[Medicineman]

The rules *do* specifically say otherwise, Medicineman.
So,where exactly do the Rules say that these Mods are incompatible ?
How is the saying ? : Reference,please,or it doesn't exist

You can certainly houserule that away,
Maybe I Misunderstand it because I'm not native speaking but the Way You use the Word Houserule "sounds" to me like you're Implying that I'm totally wrong but you have no Proof for your Claim !

The -6 for blind is probably too small a penalty to start with, and getting it to 0 pretty easily seems unreasonable.
Hmmmm,If You can amass 20,25 Dice for Climbing or Social interaktion than its definitely OK to
add up two advantages .
If you want to put a Cap on it than its definitely unfair not to cap any other combination boni (Bonusses ?)
Or ,in other Words, You can't "curb the Bush " only at 1 Place

with a Dance in the Bushes
Medicineman

[ProfGast]

@Medicineman
The point we're making is that the abilities in question don't actually add a 'bonus'. It doesn't say "You get +2 dice pool when fighting blind changing -6 modifier to -4"
It says, and I quote the adept power:
"Blind Fighting reduces the penalties for full darkness modifiers to -4 (rather than -6)." It doesn't say "reduces full darkness modifiers by 2" even which would work. It specifically states it is reducing the penalty TO -4.

Blind Fighting Martial arts maneuver reads:
"The Modifier for attacking a hidden target in melee combat is reduced from -6 to -3."
As with above, RAW, the maneuver reduces a *penalty* from a specific number, to a specific number. It does not grant a "bonus", which could be stacked. Thus, RAW, the two items are incompatible as the Blind Fighting Martial Arts maneuver reduces from -6 to -3, thus making the Blind Fighting Adept power pointless, as 'reducing' the -3 penalty back UP to -4 is silly.

It isn't particularly difficult to argue that the two COULD stack, or that the reading OUGHT to say "reduce by 3" or "adds a +2 bonus while fighting in full darkness" but there you go. The only real difference RAW between the two is that the Maneuver is Melee only, and the adept power applies to ranged attacks.

[Makki]

yet Motion Sense and Ninjutsu will stack with either Blind Fighting, as they reduce the modifier.

[ProfGast]

yet Motion Sense and Ninjutsu will stack with either Blind Fighting, as they reduce the modifier.

Truth

Motion sense: "If target is detected, reduce the dice pool modifiers for visibility or blind fire by 2"

Ninjutsu: "reduce Visibility modifiers in melee combat by 1"

And there is no written reason those two cannot stack. Thus with Blind Fighting (MA) [-6 --> -3 in melee] + Ninjutsu [reduce by 1] + successful motion sense [reduce by 2]
you can in fact get a -0 modifier to fighting 'blind'

[Yerameyahu]

Medicineman, Climbing and Social are not combat, and I wasn't basing any argument on that comment in the first place. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Musings are allowed.

As for proof, it's been given a couple times already by various people, so I won't repeat it.

[Mäx]

The -6 for blind is probably too small a penalty to start with.

Well for a good gun-bunny that -6 is peanuts compared to what they lose from having to use intuition in place of agility (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Yerameyahu]

Swordsman, but yes. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Did we actually resolve whether powers that reduce the Blindfire penalty are the same as/stack with powers that reduce full darkness visibility penalties? It looks like people are assuming they are. It was my understanding that blind characters don't have visibility, period. It's true that full darkness or blindness can each lead to the blindfire penalty, but that doesn't necessarily mean you can 'treat' both of them. As I said earlier, the GM could (and IMO should) specifically allow some of them to function that way, because otherwise the blind character has no options: the Adept power is darkness, for example, and so is ninjutsu.

Aside: blindfire is Ranged combat. Is there actually a mod for melee, or is it just visibility after all? These conflicting rules are very annoying.

Motion Sense + MA Blindfighting remains a solid (if conditional) +5, though. That should be plenty, even if the GM doesn't allow your ninja powah. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[deek]

I think a -1, -2 or -3 to a blind fighter fighting are rather acceptable. Even if you have a few less dice than your sighted counterpart, take a look at not being affected by flash paks and the like. You are also not going to be affected by any sight spells...so while there is a tradeoff in combat, overall, you do still have balance even if you can't get that melee/range mod down to 0.

Seems like a small price to pay to get the style you want. Since this is Shadowrun, real eyes are kinda pointless anyways, with all the cyber and magic mods. You're blind fighter walking into a runner bar with his katana or whatever, and acting badass because he is blind, will likely find a half-dozen blind runners wondering why your dude didn't just get some new eyes... What's kind of cool in 2010 could be perceived as rather stupid in 2072.

[Makki]

if you took the Neurological Blind Flaw, cybereyes won't do any good. but for 15k+5k+12k and 0.3 essence, I can get a fully working ultrasound system. (the ultrasound vision enhancement would not work, because it translates into a visual "map")
that's probably the way to go, if I wanted to be daredevil...

I just can't figure out, why Ultrasound has a -3 modifier in full darkness and -1 in partial light...

back to topic:
the fun and unique part of the character might be maxing out Intuition rather than Agi, which is easy and every noob can do