Increasing Sensor Rating, Is there an abstract, easy way to do it? Options

[TeslaNick]

I'm putting together a drone rigger, and I'm theorycrafting some drones to be used in a TacNet. The problem is that it seems like the rules for improving the sensor rating on a vehicle or drone are unreasonably complex and prone to exploitation.

Is there an easy way to just pay for a higher sensor rating without dealing with upgrading individual sensor ratings and averaging them?

[Yerameyahu]

First, you shouldn't use the 'generic' Sensor rating in the first place. If you must, you should just take the 5 minutes and upgrade the sensors piecemeal, because otherwise you won't know what it should cost. The problem is that the *cheapest* way to get a Sensor Rating of 6 doesn't always result in a set of sensors that's actually useful (which is why you shouldn't use the generic rating to begin with).

[TeslaNick]

That's an extremely unhelpful response: I asked if there's a way to do it, and you replied that I shouldn't do it that way. If there isn't a way that's fine, I'll work something out with my GM, but after plenty of searching I couldn't find a quick-n-dirty way of doing it and needed to know if something like it existed.

As a new and casual player of Shadowrun, I can say that it absolutely does not take 5 minutes to find all the rules relating to sensor upgrades. The rules are spread across (at least) two books and rely on (at least) three different tables. It took me 45 minutes--my entire lunch break yesterday--just to figure out how to do it, and I'm reasonably sure I'm not doing it right. It's unnecessary complexity where none need to exist -- the wonder of abstraction is that it simplifies everyone's life.

[Yerameyahu]

On the contrary, knowing that there isn't a simpler way is a helpful, if disappointing, answer. As you said, it allows you to work something out with your GM instead.

I can see how it would take a new player longer (only the first time, though), but there are many people here happy to assist if you did want to learn to upgrade sensors. It can be done with only the core book (as can most anything). Again, the GM will have to do it anyway, to decide what a fair cost is.

[Laodicea]

I'm 100% with the OP on this one. I've houseruled that sensor upgrades just cost about 200Xnew rating. There's little reason to worry about exactly what kind of sensor something has. Particularly when you're getting into sensor ratings 6+. The answer is that it has all kinds of sensors in varying positions and sizes. The fluff is so disconnected from the crunch with sensors, anyway. Read the description of a radar sensor. It sounds awesome! seeing through walls! but it just gives +4 to visual perception tests, really.

[TeslaNick]

On the contrary, knowing that there isn't a simpler way is a helpful, if disappointing, answer. As you said, it allows you to work something out with your GM instead.

As a friendly suggestion, in the future a simple 'yes' or 'no' is a more helpful answer than the one you gave. Clearly, you're an experienced player, and you have an encyclopedic knowledge of the rules.

@Laodicea: Thanks for the suggestion! I was considering something similar based on the tables for raising other vehicle stats. I'll run that past my GM and see if that flies.

[Yerameyahu]

The UWB radar *does* see through walls, while the vehicular one is… radar. It can detect and locate most objects in total darkness. That's pretty handy.

200¥ per Rating is very (too) cheap. Many of the more miscellaneous sensors have no rating and cost about 50¥, but that main ones aren't like that. The camera alone is 100¥/rating, and vehicles will have (standard car-type loadout) 2 of them already. You're now at 200¥/rating without mentioning the thermo, smartlink, other A/V enhancements., or the radar (200¥/rating by itself), and certainly not UWB radar (500¥/rating by itself).

That's exactly why I answered that there isn't a shorthand, and that you can't make one without considering the normal costs first. The listed 'standard loadout', is like (400¥*Rating + 300¥) without any extras, and being a rigger is all about extras. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Laodicea]

by "200Xnew rating" i meant for it to be raised like an attribute. If your base rating is 2, you pay 200 X 3 = 600 to raise it to 3. 200 X 4 = 800 to raise it to 4, and so on.

Yes there are some basic things that need to be covered by the fluff, like whether a sensor is visual, auditory, or exotic. Whether it can penetrate walls or darkness, etc, but at the higher sensor ratings its very safe to assume that it can do all of these things, without the need for being anal about it.

[Yerameyahu]

Oh, I see your math. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

My point is actually that you can't assume that, especially with drone (as opposed to vehicle) sensors. Yes, the sensor rules in SR4 are messy, but vehicles are already very strong, and pretty cheap; assuming they can do whatever is unbalancing.

[Laodicea]

Valid point. but it's such a paaaaain!

[DMiller]

As a simple house rule (before we did a lot of digging into how to actually increase sensor ratings) we used the "Improved Sensor Array" from Arsenal (p 138) and (again house rule) stated that it added a blanket +2 sensor rating.

After we discovered the rules for actually improving the sensor value of the drone/vehicle, we tossed the house rule.

-D

[sabs]

it gets worse when you realize that microdrones don't have enough sensors to be able to safely fly or drive (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Eratosthenes]

Standard Vehicle Sensor Package (12 Capacity) is:

2 Cameras
1 Atmosphere Sensor
2 Laser Range Finders
2 Motion Sensors
1 Radar

Breaking it out:

Radar (levels 1-6): 200/level
Atmosphere Sensor (levels 1-3): 25/level
Cameras (levels 1-6): 100/level
Laser Range Finder and Motion Sensors have no ratings.

So a "standard" sensor package would be
Level 1: No additional cost
Level 2: +325
Level 3: +650
Level 4: +950
Level 5: +1250
Level 6: +1550

If you want additional options (low-light, thermo, etc.), you'll have to pay extra (and ensure you don't go over Availability. If you want to swap things out (ditch the laser range finders for something else), then simply add on the difference in costs.

[Yerameyahu]

Of course, the other problem is that the standard load is crap. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Eratosthenes]

Of course, the other problem is that the standard load is crap. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

And one which any rigger worth their salt will customize, including throwing in some microphones so they can actually hear what's around them. Kinda weird that a rigger jumped into a default car is basically deaf. I suppose the control rig converts some of the feedback data (engine status, etc.) into auditory signals (pings, bleeps, and bloops!).

[Yerameyahu]

Right, and that's why piecemeal is the only way to go. :/ Hmm. I wonder if the GM should require a Select Sound Filter (1 point worth) to negate the vehicle/road noise and be able to hear anything useful. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Eratosthenes]

Right, and that's why piecemeal is the only way to go. :/ Hmm. I wonder if the GM should require a Select Sound Filter (1 point worth) to negate the vehicle/road noise and be able to hear anything useful. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

I don't know about that. I don't have a select sound filter, and I can hear just fine with the windows up while driving in the car. I'd say road noise would just be a DP penalty on perception/sensor checks depending on speed, just like a noisy environment would be a DP penalty (without a sound filter).

That's assuming, of course, the mechanic didn't put the microphone pickup on the bottom of the car, right next to the wheel well (glitch, anyone?). (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Yerameyahu]

That's what I'm talking about, though. Engine noise, mechanical noise, road noise, and the car's microphones would be external. They'd have to be, because the point is being able to hear *as* the vehicle. (Certainly you should have internal sensors as well, but they're not really what we're discussing.) I was kidding anyway: electric motors are pretty quiet and, yes, ambient noise is already on the Perception table.

[Eratosthenes]

That's what I'm talking about, though. Engine noise, mechanical noise, road noise, and the car's microphones would be external. They'd have to be, because the point is being able to hear *as* the vehicle. (Certainly you should have internal sensors as well, but they're not really what we're discussing.) I was kidding anyway: electric motors are pretty quiet and, yes, ambient noise is already on the Perception table.

Oh, I know you were (hence your smiley), but it was a fair point. I mean, there's a reason high end cars increase the volume of their radios as the car's speed increases: the background noise increases significantly.

Hrm...what sensors would a drone need, at a minimum, to be able to drive around? A camera (front) and a laser range finder would suffice, no? Or if there's room, radar solely should provide enough information not to run into most things?

[Yerameyahu]

Assuming great camera and image-processing tech, I guess just 1 camera could suffice (minimally); or ultrasound, or UWB radar. For cars, a normal radar is probably enough to avoid hitting vehicles and buildings (they navigate with GridGuide anyway), but would that detect things like people? Presumably, that's what the Motion Sensors are for, even if RAW or common sense says they can't.

[Dahrken]

IMHO the Motion sensors are here for low speed, close range detection as it is cheaper than a full-blown radar. The radar (UWB rather than normal is useful to reduce interferences with other radars operating in the same frequency band) probably covers just the front sector, and ultrasound/motion sensor is fitted on the sides/back to handle things like parking the car or reversing - and as a bonus it can work as a proximity sensor for anti-theft systems.