The strength one life Options

[sunnyside]

It seems to be every so popular a dump stat these days, as it doesn't show up in tests made all that commonly.

However it's pretty weak. And in principle limits you drastically before tests and penalites ensue.

So I figured I'd look up some weights and share.

grenade - about a half kilo
pistol -little over a kilo
AK-47, loaded - just under five kilos (but if you add an underbarrel grenade launcher or much for accessories it'll be over 5)
Barret M82 sniper rifle - nearly 15kg all on its own!
Basic clothing, pocket contents, and shoes - 1-2 Kg (or more, if those boots are horrershow)
Modern lighter armored vest (guestimate for form fitting body armor half suit) 3+kg
modern armed jacket (yeah they sell those now) 3+ kg

Obviously a str1 character will have to pick their gear carefully.

But what do you think about things like doing a chin up and that sort of thing? I figure the climbing rules apply when you can get your feet involved, but what about when you can't so much? I figure that applies beyond strength one. For example a strength 3 but bod9 orc with some gear. Actually would you modify climbing tests by just the standard -1 for going over the weight limit?

Any other actions people might take for granted that these physically challenged individuals might need to be concerned about?

[Glyph]

Someone with Strength:1 can carry 10 kg (about 22 lbs) unencumbered. I have always considered 1 to be the lowest functional Attribute, representing someone undeveloped in that area, rather than handicapped (which is represented by other flaws such as uncouth, infirm, etc.). Remember, it only takes 10 karma to raise that Attribute to a 2.

That said, a Strength: 1 character will face challenges. Normal armor, a sidearm, and a bit of gear won't be a problem, but a full kit or heavier weapons will encumber the character. Any time they need to drag a comrade to safety or carry anything bulky, they will not be very effective. Personally, I think they suffer enough from frequent encumbrance penalties, and being ineffective at any Strength-related skill (and note that without some positive modifiers, they won't even be able to default on things such as climbing).

It's true that Strength is one of the less useful Attributes, but doing things such as carrying things should be fairly common, so a low Strength should still be a hindrance to most characters.

[SpellBinder]

Would love to see a Strength 1 character try and drag a wounded fellow runner away from a gunfight. Knew a player who had such a weak character, and got himself gunned down because he couldn't make his unconscious dwarf buddy budge.

[Glyph]

It would have been even funnier if he couldn't get his unconscious pixie buddy to budge. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotfl.gif)

[Redcrow]

As a GM I really enjoy when players do silly things like make Strength a really low dump stat. I will pick at that flaw all day long like a kid picking at a scab. Then again I'm an avid supporter of the "Play Dirty" method of GMing. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Jhaiisiin]

Weren't weights pretty much eliminated in SR4? Thus does it matter what level your strength is at insofar as carrying gear? I'm aware that realistically, no, it isn't irrelevant, but going strictly by what's in the book, it would seem to not matter as nothing really has weights... I know there are some here that would argue that due to nothing having weight listed, a Str 1 character would be impossible to be encumbered by his gear, going by strict RAW.

[Medicineman]

Strength is damned important for the Athletic Group and any active Char without it
(STR-1 Pool) is......Well I'd say he's like a one-Legged in an Asskicking Competition

He who dances with two Legs
Medicineman

[LurkerOutThere]

While i agree that i'd rather see strength used as the value to figure armor encumbrance if there arn't checks for it that's the GM"s fault not necessarily the systems.

[Aku]

Weren't weights pretty much eliminated in SR4? Thus does it matter what level your strength is at insofar as carrying gear? I'm aware that realistically, no, it isn't irrelevant, but going strictly by what's in the book, it would seem to not matter as nothing really has weights... I know there are some here that would argue that due to nothing having weight listed, a Str 1 character would be impossible to be encumbered by his gear, going by strict RAW.

Not really, p. 300 of sr4 has the rules of course, since nothing has weights lifted, meh... so much for consistency

[SpellBinder]

Personally I like the idea of not having to micromanage weight and encumbrance (like D&D). Fortunately I never had players try to overdo what they were carrying. Also have yet to have a player in any of my groups take a Strength less than 3. Personally I've played a Strength 2 hacker who was also a human changeling with neoteny once, but never a Strength 1 character.

Honestly the only attribute I've ever skimped on was Edge.

[Aku]

not having to micromanage is good, yes, but at the same time some of these load outs people carry are absurd.

[UmaroVI]

Honestly, you could fix this by just saying "if you don't have STR of at least X, I will screw with you" instead of making people micromanage gear. Given that the book doesn't list weights for any gear, I'd rather not play "so how much does an X weigh?" for half an hour with my GM (or with my players when I am GMing).

[Karoline]

Honestly, you could fix this by just saying "if you don't have STR of at least X, I will screw with you" instead of making people micromanage gear. Given that the book doesn't list weights for any gear, I'd rather not play "so how much does an X weigh?" for half an hour with my GM (or with my players when I am GMing).

Especially considering everything in the book is made in the future with future materials that are supposedly lighter than modern materials, and stronger so that less is needed in the first place. OP listed the weight of a bunch of stuff in modern times. Nothing says that it will be the same weight in the future, and much says that it will be lower.

I think the reason strength has become a dump stat in the game is because it is a dump stat in real life. While being strong can be nice and helpful in particular circumstances, for the vast majority of people it isn't needed at all. Now, there are obvious exceptions for jobs that are more physically demanding like construction, but even they are needing less and less strength as more and more machines are being brought into the job site. I think it's entirely reasonable to believe that the average person has a lower strength than any other stat, and that the average will only continue to go down with the advent of things like drones.

[Faraday]

As far as encumbrance is concerned, I'd only worry about armor values. Anything else is too much of a hassle to bother with.

I usually run with STR+BOD (instead of B*2) as the maximum armor level before penalty, as well as allowing the arsenal rule that increases personal recoil compensation with higher strength values. Most of the time, PCs with low strength aren't going to be carrying ridiculous amounts of gear, while PCs who are combat-oriented that carry heavier and bulkier gear usually have higher strength.

[Karoline]

As far as encumbrance is concerned, I'd only worry about armor values. Anything else is too much of a hassle to bother with.

I usually run with STR+BOD (instead of B*2) as the maximum armor level before penalty, as well as allowing the arsenal rule that increases personal recoil compensation with higher strength values. Most of the time, PCs with low strength aren't going to be carrying ridiculous amounts of gear, while PCs who are combat-oriented that carry heavier and bulkier gear usually have higher strength.

Sounds reasonable, but you also have to remember that many character builds can't help but have some low stats. TMs and Mages in particular fall into this category due to the very real need for high mental stats. I'm not talking about min/max, I'm talking about basic 'I'm competent' requirements.

[Zyerne]

OTOH, mages and TMs will notice the effects of an agility penalty from too much armor less than the sams will.

[Karoline]

OTOH, mages and TMs will notice the effects of an agility penalty from too much armor less than the sams will.

Or more because in the cases where they are used, the penalty is a larger percentage of your DP because you have a smaller DP in the first place. If anything, I'd say the combatant types would notice it less because what is a -1 DP when you have 20+? I mean you've already reached the point where you will never miss, you're just losing 1/3rd of a box of damage. For a mage/TM though, you're looking at being brought below the threshold for being able to hit someone in the first place.

[Zyerne]

Granted it will have a bigger effect as a percentage of dicepools but with the exception of forgery the agi based skills are either combat or infiltration.

A TM isn't, IMO, particularly suited for either of those roles using their meat body.

A mage relying on spells isn't going to worry about agi too much anyway. For a gunbunny mage, using that house rule, stick with light armor or take the strength.

It's not a house rule I use but I think it's one of the most defensible.

[Kagetenshi]

While being strong can be nice and helpful in particular circumstances, for the vast majority of people it isn't needed at all.

That's just wrong. Or do you never decide that you want a piece of furniture in a different location than the one it currently occupies? Or never decide to get the 50-pound bag of rice? Or never haul around luggage? Or if I take a stronger interpretation of "needed", suddenly we get most of the attributes as potential real-world dump stats.

Anyway, STR 1 characters can carry very little weight, but standard canon gear has no weight. Mostly a disadvantage for heavy McGuffins or rubble.

~J

[J. Packer]

That's just wrong. Or do you never decide that you want a piece of furniture in a different location than the one it currently occupies? Or never decide to get the 50-pound bag of rice? Or never haul around luggage?

I think you might be conflating "encumbered" with "impossible" there - I certainly don't, in RL, have a high STR, but I can pick up the 50 pound bag of rice - I'll just be encumbered, and at a disadvantage to my Gymnastics rolls (which I would be defaulting to my also low AGI, on...)

[Karoline]

That's just wrong. Or do you never decide that you want a piece of furniture in a different location than the one it currently occupies? Or never decide to get the 50-pound bag of rice? Or never haul around luggage? Or if I take a stronger interpretation of "needed", suddenly we get most of the attributes as potential real-world dump stats.

I'm sorry, I didn't realize that furniture now weighed 300 lbs. There is very little furniture that can't be moved by two people working together, even if they are fairly weak. Same with the rice bag (Not that I've ever purchased 50 lbs of rice), you drag it over to your cart and push it along, no worries. And with luggage, that's why wheels were invented. And a difficulty here is a minor inconvenience as opposed to a crippling disability.

The more important stats are the mental stat. We make dozens or hundreds or thousands of social interactions on a daily basis depending on our lifestyle and job, thus requiring a good charisma. A high logic/intuition is required to get through school and thus get a high paying job, and then to do well at that job. I admit the other physical stats and willpower aren't as important, but they are more important than strength for most people.

[Squiddy Attack]

Besides, pushing or dragging something heavy is much easier than actually lifting it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Someone who can't even come close to lifting their own body weight can probably still put their shoulder up against a couch and shove it.

[Karoline]

Besides, pushing or dragging something heavy is much easier than actually lifting it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Someone who can't even come close to lifting their own body weight can probably still put their shoulder up against a couch and shove it.

Yep. Like I said, a low strength in this case is a minor inconvenience as opposed to a real problem (and one which likely comes up very rarely, as few people move their furniture all that often)

[Link]

I don't think STR has become todays 'dump stat', consider the proliferation of gyms and protein/bulk supplements. Perhaps more true among the DS cyber evolved though ;)

[Jaid]

I don't think STR has become todays 'dump stat', consider the proliferation of gyms and protein/bulk supplements. Perhaps more true among the DS cyber evolved though (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

sure, and consider that the only reason those gyms are needed is that most people aren't getting a physical workout unless they go to those gyms.

also consider that there are far more people who don't go to the gym regularly than there are people who do.

yes, some people work on strength. many more people do not.