The strength one life Options

[Karoline]

Nope, did the math from wolphram-alpha. 150 lbs is 68 kilos. at 10 kilos per str, you need 7 strength to do it without a test.

There is a notable difference between 'able to lift' and 'unencumbered'

I don't see anything morally wrong with a cerebrally focused character dumping Strength.

Nor do I, given that it is exactly what happens in real life. Heck, I'm also fairly sure you won't see many gun enthusiasts hanging out in the gym pumping iron either. Why? Because gun's don't rely on strength to hurt people. It's why guns have been so popular since their inception. You didn't require hours and hours and hours of strength training to swing a sword hard or be able to draw an arrow or even to cock a crossbow, in addition to the hours and hours and hours required to learn to actually use the weapon.

[sabs]

Except of course you'll find that serious shooters have /really/ strong hands/wrists/forearms.

Same with mountain climbers. They're incredibly wiry and strong, even if they might not be able to benchpress 400 lbs.

[Karoline]

And yet you can't represent that at all in the game. So, you're left with spending a bunch of BP on a mostly useless stat in order to incorrectly represent one tiny facet of your character, or saving BP by representing being overall not that strong with a low strength.

[Inncubi]

I think that Karoline's arguments are the ones that convinced me the best...

As a GM, then, I'd simply describe the strength 1 character as skinny, flabby and other such adjectives and epithets... from NPC's in bars and stuff. Rules wise he plays in the exact same way as the RAW says... but in play I'd make fun of him and have him describe himself like what he is: the weeakest functional person around. Same iwth other attributes, and will also expect him to play it adequately (A Charisma 1 ork in a restaurant with Johnson is expected to burp every once in a while), etc.

Other than that, I won't bother. If the player abuses it, I'll let him know and work it out with him. Just as you do with anything else.

As to the having strength 7 when you are 68Kg and being able to doa chin up... then YAY! I can do 20 and I am 68 Kg, that means I can arm wrestle orks?!

[sabs]

a lifting test is actually str+body

you can lift off the ground 15Kilo/33 lbs per point without making a test. If you make a test, that adds 15Kilo/33lbs per Hit
You can put over your head 5kilo/11 lbs per point without making a test, +5kilo/11 lbs per hit.
You can lift&cary 10kilo/22 lbs per point without making a test, +10kilo/22 lbs per hit.

So a str 2 body 2 human can easily lift 60Kilo/132 lbs , and can lift 75-90 kilo/ 165-200 lbs with effort, and can carry 40 kilo/88 lbs easily and up to 60 kilo/ 132 lbs with effort.
A str 3 body 3 human would do 90 kilo/200 lbs , effort: 120-135kilo/250-300lbs , with luck up to 180 kilo/400 lbs.

That's perfectly reasonable.

[Smokeskin]

Except of course you'll find that serious shooters have /really/ strong hands/wrists/forearms.

Same with mountain climbers. They're incredibly wiry and strong, even if they might not be able to benchpress 400 lbs.

I have a book, Training for Climbing, where the author suggests that a climber never even try to benchpress more than 80lbs - climbers just don't need much strength there, and you don't want to drag unneeded muscle up the wall. On the other hand, it has tips for working your way up to doing one-handed pull-ups! In comparison I can benchpress with 2 90lbs dumbells, and only do pull-ups with 110lbs on my back. Strength can become really skewed if you train hard enough for it.

[Karoline]

Wait, doesn't a pushup and a benchpress work the exact same muscles? I mean the motion is identical, the only difference is that one uses your own body weight as the resistance, and the other uses a metal weight.

[Apathy]

Part of the problem here is that we're trying to apply specific examples to rules that lack any granularity. Strength is a whole body measurement, but in real life you can find plenty of people who have more upper body strength than leg strength (or vice versa). Or who have exceptionally stong hand/grip strength, abdominal strength, whatever.

Beyond that, by RAW there's a huge amount of difference between each level of attribute. The average person in a non-physical job (office worker, doctor, lawyer, whatever) has a strength 2 but often varies +-1 and the average person in a physically vigorous job (construction worker, lumper, infantryman, etc) has strength 3 but easily also varies +-1. Strength 4 is exceptionally strong, and professional football players are in the 5-6 range.

My point of reference for attribut range is based on my own experiences:

• As a college wrestler I probably had strength 4. I would bench around 300lbs, do a 100 pushups, 75 situps, or 25 chin ups in 2 minutes.
• After graduation, as a soldier and then a construction worker I decreased to strength 3. I could only bench 225 pounds, do 75 pushups, 50 situps, or 15 chin ups.
• Now after sitting behind a desk for a dozen years I'm probably a high 2 or low 3. I can bench 180, do around 50 pushups, 50 situps, and only around 8-9 chin ups.
• Most of my co-workers at the gym probably bench between 100 and 180 (few higher, few lower). They can do anywhere between 10 and 30 pushups, and maybe do a couple chinups. This is what I think strength 2 is.
• My wife is probably a strength 1, body 1. She can walk around and do basic tasks, but because of challenges she has with fybromyalgia can't lift much more than 15 pounds over her head. She can't do a straight-legged pushup, or chin up, but she's still very much functional for normal activities in the office.
• Before she died last year, my grandmother was mostly bed-ridden. She needed help to get out of bed, could stand and shuffle along but needed help to keep her balance, and couldn't pick up anything heavier than a book. This is strength 0.

[Kagetenshi]

Wait, doesn't a pushup and a benchpress work the exact same muscles?

Setting this question aside, you appear to have misread "pullup" as "pushup" (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

~J

[Karoline]

Setting this question aside, you appear to have misread "pullup" as "pushup" (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

~J

Ooooohhh. Yeah, that would make way more sense (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[sunnyside]

Alright. So lets see if I've got the gist of how most people feel.

Because of the popularity of the athletics skill group, shock gloves, multiple running tests if you have multiple IPs, other bonuses, etc, if gear weights/encumberance and lift tests to pull oneself up were used, they would be the main drawbacks of low strength.

However gear weights would be a hassle, also it isn't likely to be abused too greatly because GMs that won't consider weight usually do consider volume in an abstract manner, and the nature of SR4 skills means that there probably aren't all that many useful things that a player can use anyway, particularly when it comes to weapons (i,e, often players have a specialty weapon, and they might not carry any other).

A result might be players with strength one running around like they had strength five, but the feeling seems to be "big deal". And it's true that, since just giving them strength five outright wouldn't break your game, doing this certainly wouldn't.

And climbing is there as a skill, it uses strength, just use that for pull ups, and such.

[Inncubi]

A result might be players with strength one running around like they had strength five, but the feeling seems to be "big deal". And it's true that, since just giving them strength five outright wouldn't break your game, doing this certainly wouldn't.

I agree with Sunnyside on his sum up of this thread...

Can you explain what you mean by "doing this certainly wouldn't"?

Is it a double negation on giving the characters strength five outright?

Do you mean that you simply should give every character strength five, that you should enforce the fact that characters do /not/ have that attribute?

[sunnyside]

I mean lets say you have a character with strength one, but with their armor, weapons, and gear they'd need a strength of five, if you figured out the gear's weight, to haul it without any penalties. But you're letting them haul it around without any penalties.

Does this "break the game?"

Well, would just giving them strength five break the game? The other players might complain, but no, I don't think that would break the game.

Therefore letting them effectively have strength five in this one respect won't break the game.

Does this make strength dumping smart minmaxing? Yup. Is it worth calculating gear weights to prevent the possible exploit? The consensus seems to be a big "no."

[Aku]

a lifting test is actually str+body

you can lift off the ground 15Kilo/33 lbs per point without making a test. If you make a test, that adds 15Kilo/33lbs per Hit
You can put over your head 5kilo/11 lbs per point without making a test, +5kilo/11 lbs per hit.
You can lift&cary 10kilo/22 lbs per point without making a test, +10kilo/22 lbs per hit.

So a str 2 body 2 human can easily lift 60Kilo/132 lbs , and can lift 75-90 kilo/ 165-200 lbs with effort, and can carry 40 kilo/88 lbs easily and up to 60 kilo/ 132 lbs with effort.
A str 3 body 3 human would do 90 kilo/200 lbs , effort: 120-135kilo/250-300lbs , with luck up to 180 kilo/400 lbs.

That's perfectly reasonable.

no. only a rolled TEST is bod + str, flat rates are str only. (p. 130 and 300, sr4)


so a str 2 body 2 character can, without a test, lift 30 kg, and rolls 4 dice (one bought success) for an additional 15 str 3/bod 3 would be 45 + 15-30 extra (1-2 successes on 6 die)

[Smokeskin]

Wait, doesn't a pushup and a benchpress work the exact same muscles? I mean the motion is identical, the only difference is that one uses your own body weight as the resistance, and the other uses a metal weight.

As someone else said, it is a pull up, not a push up.

And a one-armed push up is easy, while a one-armed pull up is incredibly, incredibly difficult. A few climbers can even do one-fingered pull ups!

[Karoline]

As someone else said, it is a pull up, not a push up.

And a one-armed push up is easy, while a one-armed pull up is incredibly, incredibly difficult. A few climbers can even do one-fingered pull ups!

Well, one finger isn't that much more impressive than one armed. If you can hang by one finger, and do a pullup with one arm, then you can do a one fingered pullup. All the work is being done by the arm, the finger just acts as the anchor point.

[Faraday]

Does this make strength dumping smart minmaxing? Yup. Is it worth calculating gear weights to prevent the possible exploit? The consensus seems to be a big "no."

Which is why I just use armor values for encumbrance and set it against STR+BOD. It takes a few seconds to calculate and encourages taking at least a point or two of strength. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Kagetenshi]

Well, one finger isn't that much more impressive than one armed. If you can hang by one finger, and do a pullup with one arm, then you can do a one fingered pullup. All the work is being done by the arm, the finger just acts as the anchor point.

That's not quite true, given that the finger needs to support not just the body's weight but also the lifting force. The question, I guess, becomes how fast the pullup is (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

~J

[Karoline]

That's true, but most people don't do pullups all that quickly, so I don't think the added force is that extreme. You are right though, I was forgetting about that additional force.

[Doc Chase]

That's true, but most people don't do pullups all that quickly, so I don't think the added force is that extreme. You are right though, I was forgetting about that additional force.

Try one and see how you feel afterward. You need a lot of grip strength to pull it off. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Karoline]

That would require me to be able to hang by a single finger, and be able to do a one armed pullup, neither of which I'm sure I can do.

[Doc Chase]

That would require me to be able to hang by a single finger, and be able to do a one armed pullup, neither of which I'm sure I can do.

Many people would make the same claim, which is understandable!

So, try this instead - two arms, one finger each hand. See if you can hang, first, then try to lift.

[sgtbarnes_ky]

One thing i've noticed here is that people keep mentioning weight of items and so forth, that's fine and all but as a former Infantryman I have to say weight isn't everything. There is also bulk, my standard combat load was in excess of 80 pounds, and my SAW gunner had about 2o pounds more on him just in extra ammo he carried, now that was 5 years ago and TO&E my have changed as to what is included in gear for combat patrols now. My point is that it was never the weight, you got used to that, it was the bulk you had to carry, there is only so much room on the human body to but things, adn you end up looking liked a stuffed bear pretty quickly, armor, LBV, Ammo, Water, NODS, Pro mask, bayonet, extra ammo, butt pack, Weapon, extra ammo, assorted knick knacks, you run outta space real quick. So for the STR 1 characters, yes at first encumbrance will be a facter but after 10 25 karma, it's not unreasonable to raise your 1 to a 2 or 3 to show that ylour STR has improved. My concern is people with BOD of 1, a skinny as a rail or short as a Hobbit metahuman will have trouble finding places to carry all that gear around on. I think as GMs use common sense, if the RAW is not there to support reality, use your best judgement, and house rule it. Make characters spend 10 points of karma to improve a 1 to a 2 to show their body's have gotten stronger for having carried around extra pounds of gear. When I entered basic I was in good shape, able to pass a PT test no problems, others in my platoon had difficulties with poor lower and/or upper bodies, but by the tiem we finished in 15 weeks, we where all able to hump our basic loads 15-30 miles no sweat. Bodies will adjust to more weight, you'll grow stronger and increase muscle mass. So if a character wants to dump stat STR to a 1 cool, no problem, the daily live a runner leads is sometimes more physical that cerebral yes, so use common sense guys and spend the 10 karma to increase the stat to a 2, 10 karma takes like what 2 or 3 game sessions to get, spend it on a increasing a low stat, boom makes sense right. So yes at first you will be strained to keep up with your more athletic party members, use it a so good chance for roleplaying, but realize that you will get better and stronger as time moves along if you wanna carry 20-30 pounds of gear with ya. There is no real concrete RAW for this in 4E so GMs palyers use your best judgement and be realistic to home rule it and you should be fine. Low physical stats are easier to home rule as ir real life we can go to the gym and work out or play sports or whatever so you can see how that would increase STR/BOD/AGI/REA in life, so it's easier to apply that in gane terms, and again 10 points of karma is a no brainer to increase a 1 to a 2 in a dump stat (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[sunnyside]

The bulk thing slaps bod 1 characters pretty hard with the armor rules. I would be surprised to actually see a bod 1 char, save for the occasional bunker rigger type character.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

The bulk thing slaps bod 1 characters pretty hard with the armor rules. I would be surprised to actually see a bod 1 char, save for the occasional bunker rigger type character.

Played a Necromancer who had all Physical Stats at 2 once (Followed the Dark King, no less)... lasted almost 100 Karma, all told, before he fell to ghouls...