Drone Speeds, That little old lady is outrunning my Otomo! Options

[Lantzer]

I was skimming through my Arsenal, amusing myself while feeding my daughter her bottle, and I noticed something that popped out at me.

I'm sure folks here have noticed that the Segway and the humanoid (cyborg) drones shuffle along at roughly the speed of a crippled dwarf:

Human: 10/25
Dwarf: 8/20
Drones: 5/15

Was this ever corrected, or was there some reason that a cyborg with 4 init passes should be outrun by an old lady with a walker?
The Otomo in particular was supposed to be mimic-option capable, so shouldn't it move at roughly the speed of a human?

And I thought Segways were supposed to move slightly _faster_ than a person walks?

Was there an eratta on this that I missed?

[Mäx]

Human: 10/25
Dwarf: 8/20
Drones: 5/15

You're comparing 2 totally different thinks here.
5/15 is Otomos acceleration stat, it's speed is 30 and the segway has a speed of 40.

[Rotbart van Dain...]

The basic error is that walker mode halves all of the the original, wheeled movement speeds. It should double tactical movement aka "Acceleration", while still halving the original, wheeled top speed.

[Lantzer]

You're comparing 2 totally different thinks here.
5/15 is Otomos acceleration stat, it's speed is 30 and the segway has a speed of 40.

True - But all drones and vehicles use their acceleration for their run/walk speed in combat turns if I am not mistaken.

Hence the worries about cyborgs and those insane hackers who ride around on segways in full VR.

Checking...
OK...

Vehicle Combat SR4A p 167 : Acceleration is used for walk/run in combat

Interestingly enough, in Augmentation, p 159, there's an inconsistancy. Cyborgs don't have a run/Walk but use Speed for their movement rate.

Hmm.

[Rotbart van Dain...]

The cyborg rules in general are pretty inconsistent with the rest.

[Yerameyahu]

I think you're misreading it. You still use their real Speed in combat. They simply have a walk Accel and a run Accel, and you can boost it significantly with a Vehicle Test. Obviously, a car (or, jesus, an airplane) doesn't slow to its Accel just because 'combat starts'.

Robert, why would a walker double acceleration? Wheeled vehicles can accelerate pretty well. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) So can 'legged' creatures, but twice as much?

[Rotbart van Dain...]

I think you're misreading it.

Unfortunately, no.

Obviously, a car (or, jesus, an airplane) doesn't slow to its Accel just because 'combat starts'.

In tactical combat, as opposed to chase combat, it is limited to those speeds, needing to constantly slow down and accelerate to maneuver.

why would a walker double acceleration?

That's why walkers are more efficient at this type of movement, instead of less.

[Yerameyahu]

I agree that a vehicle will likely *need* to go slowly if it wants to stay in the combat area, but it doesn't magically lose speed simply because it's in combat in the first place. If you're changing directions significantly, obviously you're not going full speed. That's hardly the same as 'your car can only go 30 in combat'.

I agree that walker is good at this (mostly because it's going so slowly to begin with, though), but that's an argument that it shouldn't be *halved*, not that it should be *doubled*.

[hobgoblin]

Remember that the Walker mode is a refit of a existing vehicle, not a ground up design. As such it needs to change a drive train built for torque into something that can drive multiple small engines or pistons.

Also, one is comparing sprint to marathon. While the otomo may not win the sprint, it can keep on running until the opponent is exhausted.

[Rotbart van Dain...]

Remember that the Walker mode is a refit of a existing vehicle, not a ground up design.

There is no exception for variants, though.

I agree that walker is good at this (mostly because it's going so slowly to begin with, though), but that's an argument that it shouldn't be *halved*, not that it should be *doubled*.

It is better at this than a wheeled vehicle, which should be reflected in the stats.

[Mongoose]

It is better at this than a wheeled vehicle, which should be reflected in the stats.

Walkers would arguably be better at tight quarters manuevering (meaning they don't suffer handling penalties indoors and so on) but they don't inately have a better ground-friction to mass ratio, which is what ultimately determines how fast you can accelerate. Try to accelerate to fast, and either your foot slips or the wheel spins- and the limit of force is the same either way.

The reason most folks would tend to expect walkers to accelerate faster is because muscles have excellent "low rpm torque", and gas engines have lousy low rpm torque. Most walkers you've seen are muscle powered (AKA animals), and most wheeled vehicles you've seen are gas powered (AKA cars). With electric robots, there's really little to no difference, excepting walker systems are invariably heavier than wheels (and hence slower). An electrical omnidirectional wheel system can be scary fast an manueverable... but is bad on uneven ground.

[Rotbart van Dain...]

Walkers would arguably be better at tight quarters manuevering

Which is what "Acceleration" in SR4 is all about – tactical movement.

It has nothing to do with actually accelerating.

[Yerameyahu]

Only because you say so. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Walkers *do* get a handling bonus, and rough terrain bonus. I think that's plenty.

[Rotbart van Dain...]

Only because you say so.

No, because RAW says so: See Acceleration on p. 167 – and don't miss the part on the following page that sets a fixed increase for each hit on the "running" test, no matter if you pilot a truck or a jet.

[Yerameyahu]

Yes, that part is very silly. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[pbangarth]

It amazes me that I am still amazed by the mess the vehicle rules are. The "Acceleration" value is actually the "movement" value, and has nothing to do with acceleration. The "Speed" value is the "top speed" of the vehicle. And except for the "Handling" value, which can modify a Vehicle Test roll, nothing makes any difference to how fast any vehicle can accelerate.... Indy500 sports car or GazWilly Nomad.

[SpellBinder]

Speed is the maximum safe speed of a vehicle. Drivers may accelerate beyond this, but may encounter difficulties in doing so (like control, making your engine explode from an extended red-line performance, etc.). Even on the acceleration values, a driver can make a vehicle test to add 5m to the movement rate per hit (SR4a, pages 167-168). Beyond that, yeah, the speed rules are chunky.

Of course, flesh and blood characters can push beyond their Walk/Run rates as well with a Simple Action for a Strength + Running test that adds 2m to movement per hit for that Combat Turn (SR4a, pages 136 & 148).

[Adarael]

I can't believe I've never noticed the accelleration and speed rules being this retarded in 4th edition, though now that I think about it, relative speeds haven't ever been an issue with drones except in chase combat...

I forsee a future in which I houserule this into being "hey, every hit on your test accellerates you by your accelleration value!" such as Yeremeyahu suggested. Because as it stands, it is retarded.

[Ascalaphus]

The naming of "Acceleration" is really unfortunate. If it was labeled "Tactical Speed" and the other speed "Overland Speed" that would've made more sense.

Or: if Acceleration represented how much a vehicle's speed can, you know, accelerate per turn. Combine that with some formula to compute maximum safe and stunt speeds when doing an X degree turn and you've got the beginnings of a (quite granular) movement system for vehicles.

[Yerameyahu]

In the end, the fact is that little old ladies are not outracing your Otomo. And you shouldn't have an Otomo. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Fauxknight]

Using your vehicle skill to add movement nets 5m/turn/hit, where as using the run skill to augment your movement only nets 2m/turn/hit. Metahumans are faster without spending effort, vehicles are faster when you do spend effort.

[Adarael]

Sure, but it doesn't really solve the problem of "suddenly my fixed wing drone drops from 500 kph to 90 kpg because it has opted to release bombs on these guys down here."

[Yerameyahu]

Only if you admit that problem even exists. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I don't.

All Acceleration-as-combat-movement means is that your vehicles can't jump to lightspeed, dodge, turn, juke, stop on a dime, and zoom again during the same couple combat rounds. If they're going fast, they need a Vehicle test for major deceleration/stopping (check the chart); if they're stopped, they need a Vehicle test to exceed their listed Accel; they need a Vehicle test for a turn that they're going too fast for; etc. It's all very simple.

[Adarael]

Well, given that I hadn't noticed the problem, I guess I don't need to do anything differently than what I was already doing...

[Fauxknight]

Sure, but it doesn't really solve the problem of "suddenly my fixed wing drone drops from 500 kph to 90 kpg because it has opted to release bombs on these guys down here."

Think of it as that dramatic slow-motion scene in the movie where you see the bombs released...