Can ally spirits have Great Form powers? Options

[Tanegar]

So, ally spirits can have any power available to spirits the initiate may conjure. Does that include the powers said spirits gain when being invoked?

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

I believe so, why not?

[pbangarth]

I don't think so.

Invoking is a separate procedure requiring a separate metamagic. Invoking is a process that is done to a spirit after it is conjured, so the powers available to spirits the magician can conjure do not include the special Invoked powers.

[Ramaloke]

I don't think so.

Invoking is a separate procedure requiring a separate metamagic. Invoking is a process that is done to a spirit after it is conjured, so the powers available to spirits the magician can conjure do not include the special Invoked powers.

The answer is Yes! Here is why:

Free spirits can have powers from any spirit the PC can conjure.

Conjuring is a skill group. Summoning, binding and banishing all fall under conjuring.

Since the text references Conjure not Summon we can basically include any power available to a spirit the player Summons or Binds.

[Udoshi]

The answer is no! Here is why:

Q: Ally spirit powers can be chosen from any powers available to spirits the initiate's tradition may conjure. If the initiate knows Invoking metamagic, are the powers available to great form spirits available as ally spirit powers?

A: No. The powers must come from those available to the initiate's tradition; Invoking is not inherent to a tradition.


However, its my -opinion- that since ally spirits count as spirits of all spell categories(for purposes of, say, assist spellcasting), then they should count as spirits of the tradition-appropriate type for purposes of great form powers.

Its also my opinion as a -gm- that access to a great form power of your choice with unlimited services would be broken as hell. I'd probably allow it, but at a bare minimum, make it cost a use of your ally spirit's edge. This would put a hardcap on the amount of times it can be used, and make it more of a special occasion thing when a spirit allows its magician to spend its edge.

[Ramaloke]

Ahh, well the FAQ beats me I suppose. Though my logic is still sound, this is a classic case of a game designer ad-hocking a fix for something legal that is too powerful.

[Neraph]

The answer is no! Here is why:

Q: Ally spirit powers can be chosen from any powers available to spirits the initiate's tradition may conjure. If the initiate knows Invoking metamagic, are the powers available to great form spirits available as ally spirit powers?

A: No. The powers must come from those available to the initiate's tradition; Invoking is not inherent to a tradition.


However, its my -opinion- that since ally spirits count as spirits of all spell categories(for purposes of, say, assist spellcasting), then they should count as spirits of the tradition-appropriate type for purposes of great form powers.

Its also my opinion as a -gm- that access to a great form power of your choice with unlimited services would be broken as hell. I'd probably allow it, but at a bare minimum, make it cost a use of your ally spirit's edge. This would put a hardcap on the amount of times it can be used, and make it more of a special occasion thing when a spirit allows its magician to spend its edge.

I like your thinking. Balanced and fair.

You can also do it this way, by the book: let your Ally Spirit go free, Bind him as a free spirit, and then use Invoking. I doubt it would get any Great Form Powers, but the extra reach and whatnot are awsome (and actually, I'd prefer the "All LoS = LoS(A)" over Great Form Powers anyways).

[Ramaloke]

I'll have to talk to my GM about it, because Im playing a Elf Magician (Voodoo Tradition) with Channeling metamagic. I'd hoped to get an ally spirit with my next bundle o karma and then grab invoking to pump it up. I was particularly hoping to give it the Endowment ability so I could be endowed with Possession myself.

[Neraph]

I'd just use a different spirit for that. Also, have you seen Ancient History's Advanced Magic book that I failed to have a link for? There's mention of a metamagic technique for Possession that would make a very good Initiatory Deep Metaplanes Quest objective.

[Udoshi]

I like your thinking. Balanced and fair.

Thanks! I do try to be fair, when i'm not suggesting crazy stupid shit with the shadowrun system, like starting with a cyborg body.

I'd just use a different spirit for that. Also, have you seen Ancient History's Advanced Magic book that I failed to have a link for? There's mention of a metamagic technique for Possession that would make a very good Initiatory Deep Metaplanes Quest objective.

I got your back. You can find that draft here, at the bottom, Notes Towards the Advanced Magic Sourcebook. Its a -wonderful- read, and I've kinda been considering asking AH if I could put stats to some of his ideas, cause damn, his work's great.

[Ramaloke]

I really like this one:

Incarnation
Prerequisites: Ally Conjuration, Channeling, Possession
- The character summons an ally spirit and attempts to channel it as it inhabits them; if successful they become a flesh-form free spirit, Immune to Age and with new powers as a spirit. Of course, whether they actually transform or if they're just deluded ally spirits who believe they are their casters (which would make Incarnation a highly novel form of suicide) is a matter of academic debate.

[V-Origin]

So, ally spirits can have any power available to spirits the initiate may conjure. Does that include the powers said spirits gain when being invoked?

1) invoke after conjuring said spirit

2) create your own toxic tradition and design your own spirit with your own special greater spirit powers..

not all toxic traditions are morally evil.

[Neraph]

I really like this one:

I think he got his inspiration from me. Or we developed the idea side-by-side.

http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?show...=25710&st=0

[Yerameyahu]

You've been told before, pattyhulez. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) It is rarely useful, in our rules discussions, to suggest 'just make stuff up'.

[Draco18s]

2) create your own toxic tradition and design your own spirit with your own special greater spirit powers..

not all toxic traditions are morally evil.

Reminds me that I have to do a writeup on this one magical group that makes Toxic shamans look like house cats.

[Neraph]

I had a friend that wanted to try a toxic tradition for an "AlcheMage" - basically a toxic hermetic.

Sure, there may be toxics that are not inherently evil or those that are resisting the "evil" impulses, but that doesn't mean they're worth less than (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) 1mil.

[Draco18s]

Blood magic is closer to "evil" than Toxic is. Toxic is more "crazy/insane/chaotic."

[Neraph]

And in a game of greys, both blood and toxic are considered really, really dark grey. Which gave me pause when I got the intention of shedim being described as evil.

[Draco18s]

And in a game of greys, both blood and toxic are considered really, really dark grey. Which gave me pause when I got the intention of shedim being described as evil.

Heh. The shedim are pretty evil, that's for sure.
But yeah, this one magical...group? tradition? I read in a book was so bizarre, so morally twisted, that it (on our white-black spectrum of evil here) dives down to black and punches out the other side, giggling like mad. We're talking so corrupt that even The Joker says they've gone too far.

I have to get up off my ass and go find the passage in the book that properly describes them so I can post about a 6th world magical group with the same ideals.

[Jareth Valar]

One of the "evil" baddies/groups in my game have been modeled on the depth of depravity only capable by Melniboneans, Dark Elves/Eldar, and/or Drow. Things that would make H.R. Gieger hurl. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/devil.gif)

[pbangarth]

One of the "evil" baddies/groups in my game have been modeled on the depth of depravity only capable by Melniboneans, Dark Elves/Eldar, and/or Drow. Things that would make H.R. Gieger hurl. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/devil.gif)

As soon as I saw the image you use as your icon, I thought of Elric.

[Stahlseele]

Make me thinking of the Vampire Lord from Vampire Hunter D
http://www.moviecritic.com.au/userimages/u..._1143766092.jpg

[Jareth Valar]

As soon as I saw the image you use as your icon, I thought of Elric.

I'm glad it wasn't too subtle. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/notworthy.gif)

I really disturbed a couple of my players when they found a specially made...."musical instrument" in the cellar of a follower of the group/cult. For those that don't like bizarre twisted imagery...

[ Spoiler ]

A row of kneeling deformed bodies are arranged in a semi-circle in front of you. Their pallor is gray and lifeless and the stench of putrice hangs heavily in the air. Upon closer examination, the skin on their backs is spayed open, showing exposed nerves, muscles and sinews....and is still wet with blood and fluids. They are still alive.

*one of the players bumps the instrument in order to get away*

As you bump the nearest body, it lets out a low, mournful melodic moan. The force of the jar adds 2 others to the chorus, a choir of the damned.

Thankfully our mage who decided to assense them made his Composure test. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool.gif)

I got the idea from a novel, can't remember the exact one. Pretty sure it was one of the Elrics tough.

[pbangarth]

It's been many years since I read that stuff. I may just revisit. Thanks for the image.

[Draco18s]

[ Spoiler ]

A row of kneeling deformed bodies are arranged in a semi-circle in front of you. Their pallor is gray and lifeless and the stench of putrice hangs heavily in the air. Upon closer examination, the skin on their backs is spayed open, showing exposed nerves, muscles and sinews....and is still wet with blood and fluids. They are still alive.

*one of the players bumps the instrument in order to get away*

As you bump the nearest body, it lets out a low, mournful melodic moan. The force of the jar adds 2 others to the chorus, a choir of the damned.

Thankfully our mage who decided to assense them made his Composure test. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool.gif)

Wow, that may actually trump my Nistri group in sheer creepiness.