More funny stuff with Free Spirits, Calling, and Spirit-to-Spirit Pacts Options

[pbangarth]

I asked this elsewhere, but the small audience there has not yet answered, so I am broadening the bandwidth.

1) Can a Free Spirit use the Calling rules to bring to her a Wild or Free Spirit? After which, of course, there could be bargaining. Free Spirits are precluded from Conjuring Skills, but even mundanes can do the Calling ritual.

2) Can one Free Spirit enter into a Spirit Pact with another Free Spirit? Neither is likely to want to give up Karma, but some Pacts allow for the trade of useful things other than Karma.

[darthmord]

I don't see why not. There's nothing that specifically prevents a FSPC from using those rules.

[Seth]

I think free spirits are extremely likely to trade karma: its their most important currency.

[pbangarth]

Yes, but if they trade Karma, there is a net gain of zero. If the offered trade is
<power> for <X Karma>, a spirit would be loath to give karma for something transient.

[darthmord]

Yes, but if they trade Karma, there is a net gain of zero. If the offered trade is
<power> for <X Karma>, a spirit would be loath to give karma for something transient.

It really depends on the needs / wants of the spirit in question. Remember, they don't think in quite the same manner as humans.

[pbangarth]

True. I am trying to wrap my head around the nature of a Free Spirit who once was a Valkyrie from Valhalla and now calls herself Bryneir (Bright Peace) and runs with a bunch of gangers who style themselves as honourable heroes of the neighbourhood.

I want her to eventually be alien but not alienating. One angle I am exploring is how she might relate to other spiritforms here on Earth. She has a Lifestyle Quality, Haunted. I hope that can lead to some interaction with whatever entity haunts her home.

[Udoshi]

Yes, but if they trade Karma, there is a net gain of zero. If the offered trade is
<power> for <X Karma>, a spirit would be loath to give karma for something transient.

I think its probably the other way around. Among the Free Spirits, spirit-to-spirit negotiations would likely be carried entirely out in karma.

After all, its the only thing that matters to them. Thus, things that are worth paying for are worth paying for.

If a spirit's offering anything(whether it be power, money, information, spells, or secret metamagics), I think its fair to say they're going to ask for payment in karma, unless they have a -really- pressing need for nuyen or services you can trade.... even if its another spirit asking to do business.

I guess its kind of like Latinum(of the star trek variety) in that regard.

[V-Origin]

Suck Karma!

[Seth]

As a free spirit I mostly don't value anything physical. I have no use for material possessions. I cannot buy formulae. I cannot bind or use foci. Prehaps I can use money to buy services from these wierd meat dwellers, but what are they going to get for me that I value? And how am I going to transport the cash around anyway...it doesn't come to the astral world.

About the only thing I value is karma, and I will do things for karma...lots of things.

The same goes for other free spirits, so the only thing I care about, and they care about is karma: this makes it the trade good that you negotiate over for valuable services. It would have to be pretty valuable though. A weeks dangerous work typically netts me 3..5 karma, so I thats probably the going rate. Most spirit services aren't that dangerous...so I would have thought 1 karma would get you a couple of weeks not so dangerous service.

With regard to the calling rules, I am not sure the called spirits need karma, or the rules would have said so.

[pbangarth]

This brings us back to one of my original points. If they both value karma (equally one presumes), then why would they trade it? On the other hand, services that don't give away karma are freely renewable and expendable.

[Apathy]

I'd agree that the thing all spirits want most is karma, and that they usually wouldn't be willing to trade away karma in exchange for services. But it would make sense for them to trade powers back and forth when needed. Say a free guidance spirit with divination meets a free plant spirit with regeneration - why not trade a use or two of each others powers?

[CanRay]

Some spirits, particularly those that emulate (meta)humans to a degree, will sometimes covet other things.

For example, in my first story, the Free Spirit enjoys Coffee (The real stuff!) to the degree that she'd do a few minor things for a pound of a good blend.

Other spirits might covet other things as well. Again, as pointed out, they really don't have a human perception of worth when it comes to a lot of things, so... It could be voices, unique songs, dirty underwear, parts of a person's "True Name", and so on...

[IcyCool]

This brings us back to one of my original points. If they both value karma (equally one presumes), then why would they trade it? On the other hand, services that don't give away karma are freely renewable and expendable.

The same reason two people who value money (equally) would trade money for goods or services. They HAVE money, they WANT a service or good of some sort. If they can't convince the other party to trade in something other than money, then they must pay money to get the good or service they want. If they value the money more than the good or service that they want, then they keep their money and they don't get to have the good or service they want.

In order to convince a spirit to swap powers with you for a time, you'd either have to find one who needs your particular power badly enough to agree to a trade, or pay for the swap with the spirit's favored currency, karma.

[pbangarth]

The same reason two people who value money (equally) would trade money for goods or services. They HAVE money, they WANT a service or good of some sort. If they can't convince the other party to trade in something other than money, then they must pay money to get the good or service they want. If they value the money more than the good or service that they want, then they keep their money and they don't get to have the good or service they want.

In order to convince a spirit to swap powers with you for a time, you'd either have to find one who needs your particular power badly enough to agree to a trade, or pay for the swap with the spirit's favored currency, karma.

Yes, currency replaced barter because of the convenience. But karma is more than currency, it is actual power that energizes a spirit permanently. This makes it more ... what... valuable, useful? ... to the spirit than mere currency to be exchanged for temporary effects.

Now, having said that, I can imagine a situation in which a particular temporary effect in a particular situation would be valuable enough to a spirit for it to trade karma for that effect. But surely that would be a rare situation.

[Doc Chase]

Yes, currency replaced barter because of the convenience. But karma is more than currency, it is actual power that energizes a spirit permanently. This makes it more ... what... valuable, useful? ... to the spirit than mere currency to be exchanged for temporary effects.

Now, having said that, I can imagine a situation in which a particular temporary effect in a particular situation would be valuable enough to a spirit for it to trade karma for that effect. But surely that would be a rare situation.

I'd think they'd exchange services for services, depending on their specific skillsets.

[pbangarth]

I'd think they'd exchange services for services, depending on their specific skillsets.

That's my thinking, too.

[IcyCool]

It sounds a bit like you want to find a way of acquiring what you want without having to use the most common currency.

I'm not saying there's anything wrong with that, just that in order to convince another spirit to do that, you need to be offering something they want.

As you said, currency replaced barter because it was convenient. I might put something up for sale for $100. You come along and ask if I'd trade it for your nifty set of NERPS. If I really wanted NERPS, you'd have a deal. But more likely, you'd get a "No, but it's yours for $100".

Translate that to the dealings between spirits. You find another spirit who has a power you want to borrow for a while. Unless you can offer that spirit something it wants, you aren't going to get what you want. And unless that spirit just happens to want one of your powers at that same time, you are out of luck.

So you either pay the price (karma), or hope you can find someone who wants to barter with you. I'm just saying that the latter is going to be a far more rare thing than the former, because not every spirit will have a need for your powers.

[Stahlseele]

Hidden Life.
Both Spirits give each other a part of themselves.
Basically, impossible to get rid of them, because you would have to get rid of BOTH of them simultanously.

[Doc Chase]

It sounds a bit like you want to find a way of acquiring what you want without having to use the most common currency.

I'm not saying there's anything wrong with that, just that in order to convince another spirit to do that, you need to be offering something they want.

As you said, currency replaced barter because it was convenient. I might put something up for sale for $100. You come along and ask if I'd trade it for your nifty set of NERPS. If I really wanted NERPS, you'd have a deal. But more likely, you'd get a "No, but it's yours for $100".

Translate that to the dealings between spirits. You find another spirit who has a power you want to borrow for a while. Unless you can offer that spirit something it wants, you aren't going to get what you want. And unless that spirit just happens to want one of your powers at that same time, you are out of luck.

So you either pay the price (karma), or hope you can find someone who wants to barter with you. I'm just saying that the latter is going to be a far more rare thing than the former, because not every spirit will have a need for your powers.

Not necessarily at the same time. Spirits already operate on a contractual basis with the caster, it's not difficult to extend that on their home plane. A 'Do this for me now and I'll do something when you want me to in the future' isn't beyond the realm of believability.

[Neraph]

I asked this elsewhere, but the small audience there has not yet answered, so I am broadening the bandwidth.

1) Can a Free Spirit use the Calling rules to bring to her a Wild or Free Spirit? After which, of course, there could be bargaining. Free Spirits are precluded from Conjuring Skills, but even mundanes can do the Calling ritual.

2) Can one Free Spirit enter into a Spirit Pact with another Free Spirit? Neither is likely to want to give up Karma, but some Pacts allow for the trade of useful things other than Karma.

1) Yes they can. They're not using any skills from the Conjuring group.

2) Sure. I imagine Power Pacts would be used frequently.

[IcyCool]

Not necessarily at the same time. Spirits already operate on a contractual basis with the caster, it's not difficult to extend that on their home plane. A 'Do this for me now and I'll do something when you want me to in the future' isn't beyond the realm of believability.

Oh, certainly within the realm of believability. But unlikely between spirits that don't know or trust each other. How exactly would spirits create a binding contract between them? It's not like they'd give a damn about being sued.

What would force a spirit to keeps its word when agreeing to such a deal?

And again, I'm not saying that this isn't possible, just that it very likely isn't the norm.

[Mäx]

Oh, certainly within the realm of believability. But unlikely between spirits that don't know or trust each other. How exactly would spirits create a binding contract between them? It's not like they'd give a damn about being sued.

What would force a spirit to keeps its word when agreeing to such a deal?

There are many way to go with this, one is to have high force spirit act as a neutral arbiter for the deal, if the one party doesn't uphold the deal the arbiter messes up the offending party .

[pbangarth]

What would force a spirit to keeps its word when agreeing to such a deal?

Many of the Pacts are worded in such a way that the recipient of a favour can draw on it when she wants to, rather than when the donor chooses to allow it.

[IcyCool]

There are many way to go with this, one is to have high force spirit act as a neutral arbiter for the deal, if the one party doesn't uphold the deal the arbiter messes up the offending party .

What is the incentive for the high force spirit to do this? And, of course, what guarantee do you have that said high force spirit will do what it agreed to?

Many of the Pacts are worded in such a way that the recipient of a favour can draw on it when she wants to, rather than when the donor chooses to allow it.

If you can arrange a pact that doesn't involve karma, and the other spirit is willing, this would be the way to go. That way you don't generally get screwed on the deal.

[pbangarth]

So .... just over a year till I get around to replying. Fast turnaround in the Great Not-so-White North.

The upshot of the above is:

1) Two spirits can trade services/powers with each other. And Free Spirit PCs can Call Wild Spirits, with all the caveats other characters suffer.

2) Spirits want karma more than anything else. But trading karma for karma doesn't make any more sense than dollars for dollars.

3) A spirit will be willing to trade services/powers for karma far more likely than for another service, but the right offer at the right time could work.

All this comes around as the spirit I talk about in this thread takes a hiatus with the GM. *sigh*