Threading Options

[Gavriel]

Hi Everyone,

I'm new here. Been into Shadowrun for years and just recently picked up the 20th anniversary book and several of the supplementals. I'm planning on running a game soon that will involve at least one technomancer player and villain.

My question is this: From the core book, it doesn't seem that threading is an action. Therefore whats is the impetus to sustain threaded forms? Wouldn't it be better to build a character with a high fade resistance pool and just thread the form you are using every action and drop it right after making the action? I don't see anything to prevent a player from using this to make himself able to use any complex forms at high ratings all the time without any real penalty (Unless he manages to glitch a fade resistance roll with 12 or more dice.) How do other people handle this?

[Yerameyahu]

You probably can't have a fade resistance pool high enough.

[Gavriel]

Can you drop the form in the same turn you thread it? Or do you have to sustain it until the next round at least? Looking at it a dwarf could start with a resonance of 6 and a Willpower of 7, giving him 13 dice to resist fading. Because of the rule of 6 you have a little better than 1/3 chance of rolling a success on each die, so he can assume an average of 4-5 successes. Playing conservatively, there is no reason not to buy a bunch of complex forms at 2 or 3, and bump them up to 5 or 6 every turn, suffering only a fade DV of 3, easily resisted by such a large pool.

[Yerameyahu]

You could try it. Starting with those stats is very expensive, and you're at the very edge of 'expected results' being 4 hits. It seems very likely that probability or BP sacrifice will catch up with you, or both. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) You don't even get Rule of Six unless you're spending Edge.

I did misunderstand you, though. Threading to only 5 or 6 is playing *very* conservatively indeed.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

You could try it. Starting with those stats is very expensive, and you're at the very edge of 'expected results' being 4 hits. It seems very likely that probability or BP sacrifice will catch up with you, or both. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) You don't even get Rule of Six unless you're spending Edge.

I did misunderstand you, though. Threading to only 5 or 6 is playing *very* conservatively indeed.

Not everyone likes (or is capable) of threading to 12 though... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[Valashar]

As an aside to the question of sustaining threaded forms: Threading is treated as a non-action, mechanically. Threading the form takes place in the same action that uses said form, and can be dropped just as easily. Note that this does not (or should not) allow a techno to insta-thread an armor or shield form (or allow them to beef an already existing form) as a reaction to an attack.

It's important to me to note that not only should a player put significant focus into their technomancer PC's ability to resist fade, but a GM should also become familiar with all the circumstances in which fading occurs and always remember to get that fade resistance check in. I've seen too many games where fading was barely acknowledged (some where drain was also ignored and some where it wasn't) and it only encourages exploitative play.

[Jaid]

the threading exploit bypasses the fading. you just decide that you want to use zero successes, which causes double that in fading. double zero is still zero, so you resist zero fading, requiring zero hits, which even the most pathetic technomancer can reliably achieve (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Yerameyahu]

But it remains an obvious exploit that the GM can address in a number of ways. That's literally why there are GMs.

[Draco18s]

As an aside to the question of sustaining threaded forms: Threading is treated as a non-action, mechanically. Threading the form takes place in the same action that uses said form, and can be dropped just as easily. Note that this does not (or should not) allow a techno to insta-thread an armor or shield form (or allow them to beef an already existing form) as a reaction to an attack.

Actually I'm pretty sure it does.
I can't find any rules on it, but I'm pretty sure I've seen something around somewhere that allowed a techno to Thread Exploit to Hack on the Fly, then in response to the analyze the system gets, drop it and Thread stealth, then swap back again.

Yes, lots of threading like this is going to cause a lot of Fading, but that's the price you pay.

[Yerameyahu]

That's just another argument for it to be a Free action, not a non-action. There really shouldn't be non-actions in a game like SR, for this reason. Then, you could even allow the player to 'abort to Threading' and borrow an action from their next turn.

[SpellBinder]

If threading were a free action instead of the non-action it is, it could then be opened up to be used as an interrupt against an attack to allow Armor and/or Shielding to be threaded as soon as a TM is attacked. Taking up the character's next IP's free action (or even standard action, if necessary) to do so like how Dodge takes up a future action.

[Draco18s]

If threading were a free action instead of the non-action it is, it could then be opened up to be used as an interrupt against an attack to allow Armor and/or Shielding to be threaded as soon as a TM is attacked. Taking up the character's next IP's free action (or even standard action, if necessary) to do so like how Dodge takes up a future action.

As a non-action they can already do that (and have their attack CF threaded too!)

[Yerameyahu]

Yes, SpellBinder. That's my point. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Although, the only thing that I'm aware of that's explicitly allowed to 'interrupt' is physical combat defense; you'd have to specifically *allow* a Technomancer to use Threading as a defensive interrupt. Personally, I think that's probably a *good* thing to allow, though.

[SpellBinder]

I would too, especially from skimming through this thread it was sounding like the only way a TM could thread his armor and/or shielding form up was to do so before going into combat and not as a response of "i got hit!" (something that never has come up in my game sessions).

[Neraph]

To help mitigate Fading, have a high loyalty mage friend cast Increase Attribute spells. Or heck, have them cast those for all your mental stats anyways, since there's no Increase Resonance spell. This one's more for your BBEG, to make him scary-er.

[tagz]

I personally do not like the idea of repeat threading to get whatever value CF you feel like, all in the span of no time at all.

So I apply the "Trying Again" rule to Threading, as they failed to achieve the result they wanted. A character is free to try as many times as they like (until they run out of dice) but they will have a lower chance each try unless they take a break from it (or edge it or something). And this in no way frees them from the Fading they would receive.

[hermit]

Threading is one of the major flaws in the TM rules design. That they have Matrix Netherwalking is one of the others. Machine Sprites are yet another. More than enough reason to ban or severely houserule them.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Threading is one of the major flaws in the TM rules design. That they have Matrix Netherwalking is one of the others. Machine Sprites are yet another. More than enough reason to ban or severely houserule them.

Interesting... I disagree, but it is Interesting...

[Saint Sithney]

I thought the BBEG ran on GM fiat.

Why not just decide a DP that seems dangerous enough and throw down?
Psychotropic Black-hammer attacks sounds about right.

[Grinder]

Interesting... I disagree, but it is Interesting...

A more substantial asnwer would have been cool. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

A more substantial asnwer would have been cool. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

Sorry about that, just trying to avoid open warfare with Hermit is all... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)
I do not see any of the problems that Hermit is complaining about, but as Yerameyahu keeeps reminding me, my Table is obviously Atypical... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

[Jaid]

Threading is one of the major flaws in the TM rules design. That they have Matrix Netherwalking is one of the others. Machine Sprites are yet another. More than enough reason to ban or severely houserule them.

color me crazy, but netherwalking is where you actually physically enter the astral plane, no?

technomancers don't get matrix netherwalking. their physical body is always on the physical plane (barring the use of an astral gateway or some such, which would force them into the astral i suppose).

or am i remembering netherwalking wrong, and it's something else?

[Neraph]

Astral Gateway does not in fact force your body into the astral plane. It simply causes the person to (be able to?) astrally project.

[hermit]

color me crazy, but netherwalking is where you actually physically enter the astral plane, no?

Netherwalking is 'teleporting', using a metaplane like the Room Of White With A Shitload Of Doors from Matrix to get from A to B (like a spirit can), bypassing ANY kind of worldly or even astral security. It's a 9th circle Nethermancer skill in Earthdawn, IIRC. Technomancers can hack ANY system via Resonance Space. ANY. Even a system that is totally isolated from everything. That's matrix netherwalking - using the matrix metaplanes to get from A to B.

[Jaid]

well, no, not really. they can't actually get into the system for one thing. they can find data that is located on the system, yes (or data that *was* on the system). but they can't get on the system. they couldn't subvert a security node and take over the physical security of a building that is isolated from the matrix without getting a signal into it. they couldn't do a random search for stuff that interests them from that facility. and they likely won't even be able to get realtime information from the system.