Judgement call: Hawkeye and the Point Blank Bonus Options

[MikeKozar]

I have a player who is a Pistol Adept, and he has the Hawkeye Quality.

Hawk Eye
Cost: 5 BP
Hawk Eye grants a character exceptionally keen natural vision.
She can spot a sniper on a rooftop without binoculars or
a chip on the ground at twenty feet. Characters with the Hawk
Eye quality gain a + 1 dice pool modifier to Perception Tests to
spot something at a distance and see their unaugmented Weapon
Range Modifiers reduced by 1 step (for instance, Long Range becomes
Medium Range). This quality is not cumulative with other
forms of vision magnification and is incompatible with cyber- or
bioware augmentation or replacement.

Target Point-Blank
A target within one meter can be difficult to miss; apply a +2 dice pool modifier to the attack.
Note that this may be offset by the Attacker in Melee Combat modifier.

The description of the quality says that range catagories are treated as one lower. He is of the opinion that his character should get the +2 bonus for Target Point Blank when he is at Close range (5 meters with his pistols). Honestly, I can see arguments both for and against. As a GM, my reflex is to stomp on power-creep, but that's not based on any particular reason, so let's ignore it for the moment. The description of Point Blank is very short; it just says within one meter, and makes no mention of Range Categories. In the for column, it is a pretty cool application of the power, and fits the character concept well.

I think the most damning thing about this is the 5BP price tag. There's a big difference between shooting someone close enough to touch, and shooting someone across the room. To me, 5 BP seems like a bargain price to overcome that difference.

I'm opening the floor to opinions. What do you guys think?

[StealthSigma]

I have a player who is a Pistol Adept, and he has the Hawkeye Quality.






The description of the quality says that range catagories are treated as one lower. He is of the opinion that his character should get the +2 bonus for Target Point Blank when he is at Close range (5 meters with his pistols). Honestly, I can see arguments both for and against. As a GM, my reflex is to stomp on power-creep, but that's not based on any particular reason, so let's ignore it for the moment. The description of Point Blank is very short; it just says within one meter, and makes no mention of Range Categories. In the for column, it is a pretty cool application of the power, and fits the character concept well.

I think the most damning thing about this is the 5BP price tag. There's a big difference between shooting someone close enough to touch, and shooting someone across the room. To me, 5 BP seems like a bargain price to overcome that difference.

I'm opening the floor to opinions. What do you guys think?

Hawkeye reduces the range modifiers by one step. If you are 9 meters away with a pistol, you are at medium range. The Hawkeye trait just lets you use the short range modifiers. Hopefully that clarifies a bit. However, I do feel that point blank is a function of distance between muzzle and target.

[Yerameyahu]

Nope. As you said: Point Blank has an explicit definition *and* it's not even on the Ranges table. Double whammy against munchkinry!

[cybertier]

And it's very simple if you take the fluff reason for the bonus.
You get less penality because you can see your target better. In 5m range there isn't much to not see.

[Ryu]

One more vote for "no, 1 m". At point-blank ranges sharpness of vision is not a factor except for those who have impairements.

[Fringe]

Nope. As you said: Point Blank has an explicit definition *and* it's not even on the Ranges table. Double whammy against munchkinry!

This is my view as well. If Point Blank were a "step" on the Range table, I could see it happening. The listings of "0-X" meters (instead of "1-X") as Short Range on the table also tell me that Point Blank isn't part of the range table.

Note also that Hawk Eye does not extend the maximum range of a weapon; the character just doesn't have an "Extreme" range.

[Ed_209a]

I think point blank isn't a range category, it's a special condition modifier.

In fact, I don't think I would allow it against any target that was capable of making a dodge roll at all.

[Ascalaphus]

You can't do this with vision magnification ware either. Hawkeye is a 5BP way to essentially do the same as vision magnification.

[Fortinbras]

I'd say no. My judgment is that the +2 comes not just from the lack of distance in vision, but from the fact the bullet has nowhere else to go.

[Mongoose]

As above- Hawkeye is essentially the same bonus as level 1 vision magnification, though better, as you don't need an aiming action. And yes, you CAN use both, IMO.

You can't get any closer than short range. If a target is within 1 meter, its short range. You happen to get a +2 because its a point blank shot, but that doesn't change the fact that its short range.

[Karoline]

Wow, 19 to 0 as of this post. Very rare to see DS in so much agreement.

[Yerameyahu]

Well, it depends on the question. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[InfinityzeN]

Another vote for no. Point Blank is not a range category by RAW. Short is the smallest range category by RAW. There fore, Hawkeye only helps out at Medium and greater range categories.

Point Blank is a conditional modifier, which the GM is the only to decide which ones effect the shooter. ie, even at 1m the GM does not have to give you the Point Blank modifier.

[Karoline]

Well, it depends on the question. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Yeah, I suppose it is only the questions that involve rules. Or lore. Or opinions. Or builds. Or that have a question mark in them somewhere. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Yerameyahu]

I was thinking more like, 'no-brainers with explicit rules support', but whatever. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[KamikazePilot]

I think the most damning thing about this is the 5BP price tag. There's a big difference between shooting someone close enough to touch, and shooting someone across the room. To me, 5 BP seems like a bargain price to overcome that difference.

I'm opening the floor to opinions. What do you guys think?

Its not an opinion the rules you quoted tell it all. point blank only applies when the target is phisically at point blank range not at perceieved point blank range.

To make it easy to explain that to your player just tell him point blank is just that POINT BLANK. target is within arms reach to get its head blown open.
No amount of cyber,scopes,drugs will change the physical difference where he is.

A target at 10m may look like its at 1m with a 10x scope but the fact still remains he is still 10m.

Given the +2 DP bonus also works itsway into damage scaling it makes perfect sense too.
The highest velocity a bullet attains is at the muzzle anywhere beyond that it suffers velocity drop.
So at point blank you are not just easier to hit but you are coping ALL (minus 1m velocity drop) of the bullet's energy. At 10m it might be easier to see the target with a 10x scope but he wont be taking the whole bullet energy.

[MikeKozar]

Wow, 19 to 0 as of this post. Very rare to see DS in so much agreement.

I'm as surprised as you are. I'd like to thank you all for your feedback, I showed this thread to my Adept friend and he considers the matter tabled. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Udoshi]

I think the most damning thing about this is the 5BP price tag. There's a big difference between shooting someone close enough to touch, and shooting someone across the room. To me, 5 BP seems like a bargain price to overcome that difference.

I'd like to point out that a natural eye mod Imagelink/Smartlink combo costs 1550(well you DO want it skinlinked), plus 450(external smartlink accessory, + skinlink).

So an equivalent and better(it applies at ALL ranges) costs two fifths of a build point. The hawkeye trick only applies at extremely close ranges, and costs significantly more.


I agree. Its a neat use of a power. So....Compromise:

Give him a +1, due to hawkeye, if he's in his weapon's Short Range bracket. For comparison, thats 0-5 meters for all pistol class weapons.
If he's -actually- within one meter of a target, give him the other +1 dice. (the point blank bonus is 2 total, so you're basically taking one of the dice, and giving it just a bit of leeway on the range.)

[Yerameyahu]

That's not what the 5BP of Hawkeye is for, though. You're already getting a Perception bonus and range decrease.

[Zyerne]

Particularly as you can have a smartlink with Hawkeye anyway.

[Draco18s]

/me votes both because the OP let the poll be multi-option, and just to screw with the results.

[pbangarth]

One in every crowd.

[Udoshi]

That's not what the 5BP of Hawkeye is for, though. You're already getting a Perception bonus and range decrease.

But, lets face it. Perception bonuses are -easy- to come by in shadowrun. The range decrease is the big factor. If they player has their way, its basically a free smartlink - except that it stacks with it.

That being said, strict RAW, 'Point Blank' isn't on the range table, so Short Range can't be reduced any further.

[Yerameyahu]

I didn't say it was a good bonus. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) I was just pointing out that it already has 2 intended effects, neither of which is comparable to a smartlink, so that's not what you're paying for.

[Udoshi]

I didn't say it was a good bonus. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) I was just pointing out that it already has 2 intended effects, neither of which is comparable to a smartlink, so that's not what you're paying for.

Well, i was trying to avoid the cybereyes comparison, but if you want to go that route.... then vision mag and vision enhancement are also quite comparable. Not to mention -still- cheaper.