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> Large single-shot weapons and recoil
TheMadderHatter
post Dec 14 2010, 01:30 AM
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I've looked, I've read, I've searched the forums, and I cannot find anything that said single-shot weapons ever have to deal with recoil. Is it the case that, say, the Panther XXL can be fired with no recoil compensation and no recoil modifier to hit, or am I missing something?

Also, are there any rules for firing two-handed weapons in one hand?
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Raiki
post Dec 14 2010, 01:53 AM
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Any single shot weapon, by definition, is only firing one projectile per action phase. Considering that any barrel creep (or jump in the case of weapons with high RoF) only occurs after the projectile leaves the barrel, it only makes sense that single shot weapons would never suffer those effects (so long as you buy into the RAW assumption that you have enough time to ready your weapon between initiative passes...which is a bit iffy for the dual-wielding gun bunny that shoots 16 times in 3 seconds).


As far as the second question goes...unfortunately, I'm AFB, so some one else is going to have to answer that one.




~R~
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Yerameyahu
post Dec 14 2010, 02:33 AM
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This has always bothered me, too. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Oh well!

The 2-hand question is answered in Arsenal, at the end of the book, 'More Ways to Die'.
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MikeKozar
post Dec 14 2010, 05:08 AM
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Yerameyahu is correct:

QUOTE (Arsenal, pg 162)
Using Two-Handed Firearms
Large firearms (anything rifle-sized and larger) are typically
used with two hands. A character wielding a large firearm with only
one hand will suffer a 2 dice pool modifier to ranged attacks (1
for trolls).


That whole section is pretty useful, frankly.

Regarding recoil, the combat system treats every IP as if it was the first and last time the weapon was fired. This may be slightly unrealistic, but frankly the rules are already as complex as I want them to be. If you want a RAW reason to lean on heavy weapons, check the section above - the next entry includes rules for characters trying to use heavy weapons on the move. If you want to houserule something, you could always track recoil across the entire Combat Turn, bringing that uncompensated heavy weps recoil into play.
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Yerameyahu
post Dec 14 2010, 05:43 AM
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In that same section, actually, are rules limiting heavy weapons (seemingly written for that Panther cannon specifically) that include things like BOD/STR requirements. While I'm not sure the precise number are perfect, it's certainly something you could tweak. The RC of a heavy weapon could be 'traded' against those requirements, even for SS guns.
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Stingray
post Dec 14 2010, 06:23 AM
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...correct me if i remember wrong (AWB) but i vagely remember line " all heavy weapons suffer double uncompesnsated
recoil modifiers,including first shot" so Panther Assault Cannon Would make -2 recoil modifier +1 from shock pad (if used)
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Yerameyahu
post Dec 14 2010, 06:28 AM
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I'm pretty sure that's not the case, which is why the OP is confused. While it might address the Panther issue, it'd also wreck the unified recoil system for MGs and other weapons. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) More trouble than it's worth, probably.
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Raiki
post Dec 14 2010, 09:32 AM
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And frankly, applying a recoil penalty to the first shot of a single shot weapon is asinine. How can the gun be suffering from recoil before it's even been fired? The whole reason that recoil penalties for SA, BF and FA weapons is [# of bullets fired-1] is because the recoil starts because of the first bullet.

Effect cannot come before cause.


Oh, and the rules of the game don't work that way either. Y'know...in case you prefer those to reality. (I know I do.) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

~R~
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StealthSigma
post Dec 14 2010, 12:17 PM
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QUOTE (Stingray @ Dec 14 2010, 01:23 AM) *
...correct me if i remember wrong (AWB) but i vagely remember line " all heavy weapons suffer double uncompesnsated
recoil modifiers,including first shot" so Panther Assault Cannon Would make -2 recoil modifier +1 from shock pad (if used)


It would suffer 0 recoil if you're using the shock pad. The doubling is applied after all recoil compensation is applied.

The two-handed weapon rule makes me chuckle. It legitimizes dual wielding PACs. I promptly expect any and every GM to brain someone with the nerf bat for trying to do that.
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toturi
post Dec 14 2010, 01:22 PM
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QUOTE (StealthSigma @ Dec 14 2010, 08:17 PM) *
It legitimizes dual wielding PACs. I promptly expect any and every GM to brain someone with the nerf bat for trying to do that.

That depends. I would expect someone wanting to do that to brain any GM with the rulebook first.
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CanRay
post Dec 14 2010, 04:59 PM
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For some reason, I'm reminded of a scene in the "Preacher" Comics, where we find out where Tulip O'Hare learns to shoot.

Hint: It's at a young age, with Dad, and involves a revolver much too big for her. Hilarity ensues!
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Raiki
post Dec 14 2010, 09:03 PM
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QUOTE (CanRay @ Dec 14 2010, 11:59 AM) *
For some reason, I'm reminded of a scene in the "Preacher" Comics, where we find out where Tulip O'Hare learns to shoot.

Hint: It's at a young age, with Dad, and involves a revolver much too big for her. Hilarity ensues!



That was one of my favorite scenes too. It's really sad how few people have actually read Preacher; It was a horrific kind of masterpiece. +1 Rep for awesome taste in graphic novels.



~R~
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Snow_Fox
post Dec 15 2010, 03:18 AM
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There is a rule osmewhere baout the size of the gun limited by your strnegth but otherwise yeah, poeple have covered it. recoil modifiers have to do with throwing off the aim for the 2nd shot on. With a SS weapon there is no 2nd shot before you re-aim. Personally, RL when firing a .357 magum at the range I manually recock the gun between shots. This takes the barrell out of line but following Wyatt Earp's injucvtion I'd rather take my time and aim, quickly, than just spray. it is more accurate.
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SpellBinder
post Dec 15 2010, 06:47 AM
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Maybe what you're thinking of is the "Carrying Heavy Weapons" entry in Arsenal, page 162, Snow_Fox? In short, you have to have a Body AND Strength of 8 or use some kind of stabilization in order to use a heavy weapon without taking half its power (round down) in Stun damage whenever you use said heavy weapon. Then there's also the chance of being knocked down as well.

And in checking for some rules, an unrelated thought did occur to me. What if someone (troll or not) was crazy enough to try and wield a Panther Cannon in each hand and fire both in the same IP, using a Simple Action for each?
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jakephillips
post Dec 15 2010, 03:20 PM
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QUOTE (SpellBinder @ Dec 15 2010, 01:47 AM) *
Maybe what you're thinking of is the "Carrying Heavy Weapons" entry in Arsenal, page 162, Snow_Fox? In short, you have to have a Body AND Strength of 8 or use some kind of stabilization in order to use a heavy weapon without taking half its power (round down) in Stun damage whenever you use said heavy weapon. Then there's also the chance of being knocked down as well.

And in checking for some rules, an unrelated thought did occur to me. What if someone (troll or not) was crazy enough to try and wield a Panther Cannon in each hand and fire both in the same IP, using a Simple Action for each?

Just like my adept gun bunny with two ruger super warhawks one in each hand and ambedex
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Snow_Fox
post Dec 15 2010, 03:25 PM
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QUOTE (SpellBinder @ Dec 15 2010, 01:47 AM) *
And in checking for some rules, an unrelated thought did occur to me. What if someone (troll or not) was crazy enough to try and wield a Panther Cannon in each hand and fire both in the same IP, using a Simple Action for each?

odds are you couldn't aim them one handed,hence the rule- thank you for updating the rule reference to 4th ed. The famous scene of Rambo firing an m-60 one handed is pretty iconic for action films but it is not reaonable. if you can't hold it steady god knows where the shot is going. RL I have a PS-90 carbine. I can hold it one handed but aiming? for that I want 2 hands and that is a small, light (6 pound) weapon.
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J. Packer
post Dec 15 2010, 04:15 PM
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For those that say that recoil would not spoil the first shot, because it hasn't happened yet... you either have significantly more arm strength than I do, or you've never fired a powerful handgun.

I'll admit it, I'm a nancy-boy with poor wrist strength. The first time I fired a .357 Magnum revolver, I got so much climb on the shot that I missed the target by a distance measured in feet not inches. I would argue for a strength minimum on any firearm bigger than a light pistol, though not an onerous one. The bigger the caliber (damage value?) the higher the min STR/BOD/combo/whatever would be required to avoid added recoil penalties from the first shot.
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Karoline
post Dec 15 2010, 04:19 PM
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QUOTE (StealthSigma @ Dec 14 2010, 07:17 AM) *
It legitimizes dual wielding PACs.

Note to self: Troll dual wielding Assault Cannons.
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Mardrax
post Dec 15 2010, 04:24 PM
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QUOTE (Snow_Fox @ Dec 15 2010, 04:25 PM) *
odds are you couldn't aim them one handed,hence the rule- thank you for updating the rule reference to 4th ed. The famous scene of Rambo firing an m-60 one handed is pretty iconic for action films but it is not reaonable. if you can't hold it steady god knows where the shot is going. RL I have a PS-90 carbine. I can hold it one handed but aiming? for that I want 2 hands and that is a small, light (6 pound) weapon.


I'm pretty sure you don't have a Strength of 8 though.
Which, let's admit it, is on the low side for a troll sam.

Reason warps with superhuman stats.
What Would a Samurai Do comes to mind.
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CanRay
post Dec 15 2010, 07:04 PM
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QUOTE (Snow_Fox @ Dec 14 2010, 11:18 PM) *
This takes the barrell out of line but following Wyatt Earp's injucvtion I'd rather take my time and aim, quickly, than just spray. it is more accurate.

"One good shot is better than six bad ones." (Edit: I'm not sure if this is from any of the Earps themselves, or just from a movie/TV. But it does sound like something Wyatt would say.). And he lived in a time when you didn't have a chance to reload in the middle of a gunfight. Cap & Ball revolvers and such.

Oh, sure, that didn't stop armies from having battles and such with single-shot rifles that you had to muzzle load from the get-go... But, then again, their idea of fighting was standing in a straight line shooting at one another with said rifles until one side said, "Bugger this for a game of not-soldiers!" and went home.

Actually, thinking on it, some of the original Gonnes (No, I did not misspell that.) would be quite interesting in Shadowrun...
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MJBurrage
post Dec 15 2010, 09:51 PM
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As I see it, there are two issues with recoil.
  1. Actual recoil, which would only effect the next shot.
  2. Anticipated recoil, in which an inexperienced user throws off their own aim due to the recoil they expect.
Shadowrun ignores that latter on the premise that all characters have at enough experience to prevent it.
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J. Packer
post Dec 15 2010, 09:56 PM
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QUOTE (CanRay @ Dec 15 2010, 12:04 PM) *
Actually, thinking on it, some of the original Gonnes (No, I did not misspell that.) would be quite interesting in Shadowrun...

Note to self: Troll dual-wielding arquebus.
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Yerameyahu
post Dec 15 2010, 09:58 PM
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I mean, if you consider capitalizing an improper noun to me 'misspelling'

What role could a handgonne fill that's not already surpassed in SR4? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) Besides resale value, I guess.
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Stahlseele
post Dec 15 2010, 11:01 PM
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QUOTE (Snow_Fox @ Dec 15 2010, 04:25 PM) *
odds are you couldn't aim them one handed,hence the rule- thank you for updating the rule reference to 4th ed. The famous scene of Rambo firing an m-60 one handed is pretty iconic for action films but it is not reaonable. if you can't hold it steady god knows where the shot is going. RL I have a PS-90 carbine. I can hold it one handed but aiming? for that I want 2 hands and that is a small, light (6 pound) weapon.

Question:
Doesn't higher weight usually mek weapon firing easier but carrying harder?
More weight, less of an upward kick in the weapon, but more straining to hold up at all?

And i still want my backpack mounted dual missle launcher . .
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Whipstitch
post Dec 15 2010, 11:24 PM
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QUOTE (J. Packer @ Dec 15 2010, 12:15 PM) *
For those that say that recoil would not spoil the first shot, because it hasn't happened yet... you either have significantly more arm strength than I do, or you've never fired a powerful handgun.


I have shot powerful pistols before and I am thinking it's the arm strength. Anecdotes!

Anyway, Stahl, that is true to an extent. A heavier gun may not have any recoil until you fire it but that doesn't mean a scrawny kid can handle a SAW like a marine.
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