Large single-shot weapons and recoil Options

[SpellBinder]

Note to self: Troll dual wielding Assault Cannons.

Now I got the urge to make such a character. Or two. I keep bouncing between adept and cybernetic in thoughts.

Question:
Doesn't higher weight usually mek weapon firing easier but carrying harder?
More weight, less of an upward kick in the weapon, but more straining to hold up at all?

...

Hence the "Heavy Barrel" weapon modification, though RAW it only works for full bursts. You could instead use an Underbarrel Weight or Auto-Adjusting Weight, either of which I think are better than the Heavy Barrel. All can be found in Arsenal.

[Stahlseele]

Yeah, for once i was asking a question about real weapons and stuff, not about shadowrun . .
seeing how i am not fit for military life, i don't know much about this stuff.
i know about the modifications though . .
and i know that a 1kg under barrel weight gives 1 point of recoil reduction, while a 1kg bayonette does not *snickers*

[Brainpiercing7.6...]

Ok, physically speaking, I don't know where this idea comes from that recoil only affects the second shot IRL. There are several levels of recoil. It might be controllable, but the shockwave from the charge hits the chamber and the bullet at practically the same time. The expanding combustion gases likewise. At that moment the centre of inertia for the whole system shifts forward as the bullet travels - hence the body has to move to counter that. Normally the bullet travels much faster than the body of the gun, but then the body only has to shift sideways or upward a small fraction of a cm to throw the bullet off target. And that can happen on the first shot, if the body is too light compared to the bullet. Of course, this small shift in the mass of the body is very quick, and can be cushioned into merely a backward motion before the forces swivel on the butt of the gun into the usual upward motion of the barrel. That is what throws the aim off. But the initial recoil is the reason why some big guns let the chamber travel on a slide until the bullet exits (for instance in artillery pieces). I would assume an Assault Cannon does the same thing.

[Stahlseele]

Look at the Metal Storm Tech.
Basically, it shoots the first bullet, the expanding gasses/traveling electrical current ignite the next bullet and so on.
And they are all gone before the barrel so much as twitches.

[Brainpiercing7.6...]

Look at the Metal Storm Tech.
Basically, it shoots the first bullet, the expanding gasses/traveling electrical current ignite the next bullet and so on.
And they are all gone before the barrel so much as twitches.

There is precedent tech that avoids recoil until one or several bullets leave the barrel, Metalstorm only accomplishes this due to it's extremely quick firing rate. When metalstorm weapons fire slowly, they get the full effect of recoil. I haven't seen any demonstrations of anyone firing a metalstrom handgun at high ROF, and all the test beds were fixed and bolted on, so naturally the effect of initial recoil will be low. If you bolt a .50 cal MG to a slab of steel you'll also get less recoil. The tri-barrel metalstorm 40mm launcher that was attached to one of these test robot thingies (similar to SWORD) showed a good deal of recoil.

The G11 rifle prototype used a moving slide mechanism, and so does that russian rifle that fires two-round bursts, to allow the bullets to leave the barrel before recoil reaches the shoulder. However, that only delays it, it doesn't get rid of it. I would assume readjusting the aim after the firing is then harder, because you get triple recoil at once.

[KamikazePilot]

The G11 rifle prototype used a moving slide mechanism, and so does that russian rifle that fires two-round bursts, to allow the bullets to leave the barrel before recoil reaches the shoulder. However, that only delays it, it doesn't get rid of it. I would assume readjusting the aim after the firing is then harder, because you get triple recoil at once.

AN-94 i think is the russian rifle you are talking about.

That tripple recoil would be harder to readjust from so I can see why its a 2 round burst for the russian rifle. All things considred equal a tripple burst and a standard 3 round burst may eventually end up on the same point of the muzzle climb scale is just 3 (or 2) rounds will be the most acurate of the string (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Brainpiercing7.6...]

AN-94 i think is the russian rifle you are talking about.

That tripple recoil would be harder to readjust from so I can see why its a 2 round burst for the russian rifle. All things considred equal a tripple burst and a standard 3 round burst may eventually end up on the same point of the muzzle climb scale is just 3 (or 2) rounds will be the most acurate of the string (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

That was the one. Well, the idea of these weapons is to get more rounds on target, rather than wasted up in the sky. Seems a bit weird, because you would think, if you go to all that effort for more effect on target, you might as well use a more powerful round. You can still try cushioning the recoil on that one, but that's not quite how it works, I guess.

Even so, the videos I have seen of G11 firing seem to show quite a lot of recoil after the burst, but it also seems to be rather manageable, in that it't not erratic and sudden, it's rather delayed and gradual.

So... I still think first shot recoil should count. And recoil should not always be 1/round, but rather vary in intensity more commonly than the usual "uncompensated recoil is doubled".

[Mayhem_2006]

For those that say that recoil would not spoil the first shot, because it hasn't happened yet... you either have significantly more arm strength than I do, or you've never fired a powerful handgun.

I'll admit it, I'm a nancy-boy with poor wrist strength. The first time I fired a .357 Magnum revolver, I got so much climb on the shot that I missed the target by a distance measured in feet not inches.

Maybe your just a lousy shot without recoil having anything to do with it?

Ok, physically speaking, I don't know where this idea comes from that recoil only affects the second shot IRL.

From high speed photography which demonstrated that the bullet has left the gun before the gun barrel even begins to lift.

[MJBurrage]

As I said earlier, everthing I have read and seen, says that recoil throwing off the first shot is due to the firer over-reacting to the expected recoil as they pull the trigger.

If you could get yourself to not care (consciously and subconsciously) about the recoil, then it should not effect that first shot. I will admit that I was unsuccessful at this myself, the one time I fired a large handgun at a range. (not that I am much better with a 9mm, but I only ever used freinds handguns, and it was years ago).

On to another point raised in this thread, heavy barrel (or even weapon frame) does reduce recoil, but if it makes the weapon too heavy for the user to aim properly, than it introduces a problem worse than recoil, that Shadowrun also sort of ignores. (one could argue that it is part of weapon skill)

[Brainpiercing7.6...]

From high speed photography which demonstrated that the bullet has left the gun before the gun barrel even begins to lift.

The lifting occurs when the backward motion of the inertial system pivots around the length of the gun as the butt/grip pushes against the the shoulder or hand of the shooter. Of course this happens later. But the counter-forces to those pushing out the bullet are pushing at the body of the gun all the time - from the first microsecond. It's just not particularly detrimental to the accuracy until it starts pivoting. I would assume if your hold on the gun is too strong, and you don't allow that microscopic backward motion to happen, then pivoting happens earlier, and throws the shot off target.

[Stahlseele]

That would make firing fixed guns in mounts accurately impossible . .

[KarmaInferno]

No, if you miss badly on the first shot it's because you just suck, not because there was recoil.

Either you can't keep the gun steady or you jerked the trigger when firing.

Note that a LOT of novice shooters jerk the trigger, pull it backwards and thus pulling the whole weapon off target. You're supposed to squeeze the trigger.


-k

[InfinityzeN]

Breath, release, hold, squeeze. That is all...

[Stahlseele]

And with fixed weapon mounts?
If the weapon has no way of recoiling, what happens to the recoil?

[sabs]

it gets transfered to the body of the vehicle/drone.
Hence why the optional rule to give 1 point per body of the drone/vehicle

[Doc Chase]

Maybe your just a lousy shot without recoil having anything to do with it?

Could be that there's such a heavy pull on the trigger that he started to lift the gun to get the leverage necessary.. The pull on a .357 S&W is nasty, and it wouldn't surprise me.

From high speed photography which demonstrated that the bullet has left the gun before the gun barrel even begins to lift.

High speed photography also shows us that the bullet plowing through an apple is amazing.

[KamikazePilot]

And with fixed weapon mounts?
If the weapon has no way of recoiling, what happens to the recoil?

the point of contact teks the hit and transfers the recoil to the afixed body.
fixed mounts are nothing but and extended recoil lug that uses the vehicle or whatever platform its attached to as brace. make one out of cheap alluminium and see how long it stays mounted when firing say a M60 off it in full auto (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

its also a good way to split a cheap plastic stock on a magnum rifle if you afix it to a immobile platform and your swivel stud->fixed platform point of contact isnt braced properly internally in the stock (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)