Pilot upgrade for smart guns Options

[Seth]

Supposing I have a drone-o-mancer who also has a pistol with Pilot Upgrade (Arsenal p 152).

Pistols become minidrones
(Body 1, Armor 1, Sensor 1), Longarms become small drones
(Body 2, Armor 2, Sensor 1).

If I then have a machine sprite (or some sort of agent) occupy the gun...how does this get resolved? Is it even possible? Which skill would be used...gunner or the weapon type?

Obviously the gun has to be pointed in roughly the right direction...but how die get rolled?

Edit: Having reread Arsenal, I am tempted to thing that the grip would be linked by something like a gimbal, so basically the direction the barrel pointed would be under the control of the drone-o-mancer.

[Yerameyahu]

It's a drone when it's a drone, and it's a gun when it's a gun. When it's a gun, you'd never use Pilot. It's like the ocular drone cybereyes.

[oinopion]

Supposing I have a drone-o-mancer who also has a pistol with Pilot Upgrade (Arsenal p 152).


If I then have a machine sprite (or some sort of agent) occupy the gun...how does this get resolved? Is it even possible? Which skill would be used...gunner or the weapon type?

Obviously the gun has to be pointed in roughly the right direction...but how die get rolled?

Edit: Having reread Arsenal, I am tempted to thing that the grip would be linked by something like a gimbal, so basically the direction the barrel pointed would be under the control of the drone-o-mancer.

IMHO it was meant to be used with propulsion system. It may also be handy if you want to set up a trap, like leave your gun on the table pointed at the door.

[Seth]

Thanks for the quick replies...

So if I wanted to be able to leave the gun as a welcoming committee for baddies following us, I could just add a gecko tip to the pistol handle (I know it would normally not cover the base but it would about the right cost). It might also be cool to leave it guarding a bike...

[Udoshi]

Thanks for the quick replies...

So if I wanted to be able to leave the gun as a welcoming committee for baddies following us, I could just add a gecko tip to the pistol handle (I know it would normally not cover the base but it would about the right cost). It might also be cool to leave it guarding a bike...

The way i see it, while a pilot upgrade gives the gun the ability to acquire targets and fire on its own..... it still needs a way to aim.

I'd give it a retractable bipod, actually. Fluff it as having a small motor to turn around on, and adjust the 'legs' to aim up and down. Like 2/3's of a tripod turret. Unlike a propulsion system, its still stationary.

One interesting note about the pilot upgrade is that its treated like a drone in all respects. While its expressely prevented from taking drone modifications, a pilot upgraded gun still gets a sensor package out of the deal, completely with signal range. And, as a drone, its going to need its Sensor rating to shoot at things.(sensor+gunnery, i believe)

[Yerameyahu]

If you don't get the propulsion versions, it's a crappy drone, yes. It can't aim at all. It can watch, and fire (e.g., when taped in front of a door?).

Well, with Sensor 1, it can *barely* watch. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) Presumably, that is the camera that it already had (Smartgun required).

[hobgoblin]

I'd give it a retractable bipod, actually. Fluff it as having a small motor to turn around on, and adjust the 'legs' to aim up and down. Like 2/3's of a tripod turret. Unlike a propulsion system, its still stationary.

Don't know what bipod your referring to, but there is a smart weapons platform that is basically a stationary drone on a tripod.

[KarmaInferno]

War! also has the Arachne drone gun platform, slightly better than the stock one. It's 26F Availability, though.





-k

[Udoshi]

Don't know what bipod your referring to, but there is a smart weapons platform that is basically a stationary drone on a tripod.

The internal bipod modification on Aug 152. Its a snazzy, fancy, motorized Bipod Accessory that can deploy itself, retract itself, or double up to act as a foregrip.

Giving the gundrone the ability to move its two bipod legs around should give it the ability to aim itself, without being able to move around on them, and without using expensive smart firing platforms.(which DO come with autosofts, so you'll have to bring your own.)

[Seth]

The way i see it, while a pilot upgrade gives the gun the ability to acquire targets and fire on its own..... it still needs a way to aim

I think that all you would need to do is puts a stewarts platform between the pistol grip and barrel (IMO thats what this upgrade is, as a smart fun already has the ability to fire the gun). The advantage of that is that the platform is very very efficient giving 6 degrees of freedom of movement for very little space. It would probably be limited to something like +/- 20 degrees of movement from roughly where the gun is pointing.

Before we get into discussions of body movement causing problems, I should say that systems like this all ready deployed at the top of long flexible 200m poles to compensate for vibration and wind, so the tech is easily up to it

[hobgoblin]

The internal bipod modification on Aug 152. Its a snazzy, fancy, motorized Bipod Accessory that can deploy itself, retract itself, or double up to act as a foregrip.

Giving the gundrone the ability to move its two bipod legs around should give it the ability to aim itself, without being able to move around on them, and without using expensive smart firing platforms.(which DO come with autosofts, so you'll have to bring your own.)

Except the only thing it can do is deploy and retract via wireless command, it is not independently adjustable that way.

And the book is arsenal, not augmentation...

[Mardrax]

If it's an internal mod, the Pilot should be able to work it. Should be integrated into smartgun functionality, pretty much.
I'd probably think along the same lines if it's external. Coordinating peripheral functions into one system is what smartgun is all about, after all.

[Yerameyahu]

The Pilot could deploy or retract it, exactly as via smartlink, assuming it works via smartlink. That wouldn't help it aim at all, though.

[Seth]

Having thought about this a bit now, I am seeing a simple mod (My son has made similar mods when he was 12, although not on guns) that is a the grip of pistol detachable from the gun. Instead of clipping into the gun, you clip it into a 1 inch cube stewarts platform that gives you around +/- 30 degrees maneuverability. This lets you remove the one inch cube pilot modification when you want it to be a normal gun. Given that the gun already has a smart gun link, all we need to do is point it and the smart gun will fire.

[Yerameyahu]

So… who is paying what action/dice for this monstrosity? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) Is is a normal firing action to aim the gun the direction/elevation? Does that take skill? Does firing a gun 30° off-axis increase the recoil or break your wrist? Does the Gunnery roll get fewer dice because it's only controlling a partial horizontal aspect of the normally all-directions firing action? Messy. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Mardrax]

The Pilot could deploy or retract it, exactly as via smartlink, assuming it works via smartlink. That wouldn't help it aim at all, though.

This would depend on wether the deploying/rectracting is an on/off type of deal, or can be set to varying degrees of deployment, in which case it could feasibly be used by a Pilot of sufficient quality to aim vertically, or even rotate to some degree if the legs could be adjusted independantly.

Of course RAW says no, RC is not a mode of propulsion.

Seth's idea could work if you modded the gun-drone with a weapon mount. Not quite sure though, AFB atm. But convoluted? Yes sir, it is.

[Udoshi]

Messy. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Thats not messy at all. Aiming your weapon is part of the shooting action(a complex action). Taking better aim is an optional free action. Adjusting a bipod is a free action.

Pilots still have one complex + 1 free action per turn. Since they don't need to take aim, and may or may not need to adjust the bipod, they still have the necessary number of actions to aim and fire. Besides, making a gun take a seperate action to aim itself is a stupid ruling: because then you'd have to apply the same ruling rule to other characters, and we already know that metahumans and drones both just take a complex/simple action to aim and pull the trigger.

Smart firing platforms have a 90 degree field of fire. This one has apparently has about a 30. Oh no, big dif.

I'd also like to point out that Pilot Upgrading a gundrone also qualifies it for Body in RC, because its now a vehicle, which ought to help with the turret concept.

[Yerameyahu]

Udoshi, you're arguing against points I never made. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) My point is that the gundrone *can't* aim, not that it must use a Take Aim action. I think you might have gotten confused by my question about whether the *character* spends an action to aim the gun, because (again) the gun can't aim itself. Someone has to aim the gun, and spend the action for it (normally part of the overall firing action, as I said).

And, for the record, 90° is vastly different from 30° (also, 60° inclination), and the smart platform is a purpose-built firing drone (Targeting, better Sensors, etc.), and it's not connected to anyone's hand.

[Seth]

So… who is paying what action/dice for this monstrosity? Is is a normal firing action to aim the gun the direction/elevation? Does that take skill? Does firing a gun 30° off-axis increase the recoil or break your wrist? Does the Gunnery roll get fewer dice because it's only controlling a partial horizontal aspect of the normally all-directions firing action?

I'm with you on all those questions.

So my thinking goes like this:

• Lets compare this to a hoverdrone firing a similar pistol
• Does the hover drone actually have to be flying, or would it get the same die if it was resting on a table?
• Would the hover drone have the same die if you were holding it it instead of resting on the table?

I think that if you get the pilot upgrade and put the gun in a vice / use duct tape / use a gecko grip, then we are in the scenario of the hoverdrone resting on the table. I think that if you are holding it still, again its that scenario (although I think 3*uncompensated recoil would be fair and a few of the normal recoil compensators would not work). However if you are doing Matrix style one handed cartwheels in the government building (I have to go watch that scene again) then this is not the technology for you.

[Yerameyahu]

I think the drone does have to be flying, unless it has a turret/flex mount (and the pistol-drone obviously doesn't—it's a pistol). Honestly, if you're *not* playing up the fixed nature of most vehicle weapons, you're cheating all the people with arms, right? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Udoshi]

Udoshi, you're arguing against points I never made. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) My point is that the gundrone *can't* aim, not that it must use a Take Aim action. I think you might have gotten confused by my question about whether the *character* spends an action to aim the gun, because (again) the gun can't aim itself. Someone has to aim the gun, and spend the action for it (normally part of the overall firing action, as I said).

But you haven't made any points at all, just said the rule are messy, without any clear rules support or arguement, only questions. You don't get to give me grief about the can of works you opened up.

So… who is paying what action/dice for this monstrosity?

That depends on who is firing the gun. If the gun is deployed and the pilot is firing, then drone rules apply. If someone is firing it by hand, the usual rules apply.

Is is a normal firing action to aim the gun the direction/elevation?

Yes. As i said above, requiring people to take extra actions to aim would be silly, above and beyond the action for firing AND the seperate optional action for taking aim.

Does that take skill? Does firing a gun 30° off-axis increase the recoil or break your wrist?

Not supported by the rules. However, common sense applies, and the gun does not have to make use of this ability. If it can, it doesn't mean you have to use it constantly.

Does the Gunnery roll get fewer dice because it's only controlling a partial horizontal aspect of the normally all-directions firing action? Messy. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Nope. Why would it? Thats like arbitrarily suggesting a doberman get a dice penalty to fire just because it happens to be firing forward.
Also, not supported by the rules.


What both me and mardrax are saying is that this mod could give such a gun the ability to adjust its inclination, therefore giving it the ability to aim. Once it has that ability, it can acquire targets(because its a drone with a sensor rating), aim at(because now it has a limited ability to adjust itself), and engage(because it has a pilot, sensor, and presumably gunnery autosoft) targets within a limited field of fire.
Where I think you're getting confused is that just because you can turn a gun into a sort of miniturret, you don't have to - you can still fire it by hand without using the extra options.

[Yerameyahu]

Not only do I always get to give you grief, I just did. Ohhhhhh SNAP.

If the gun is 'deployed', it can't move at all. It can't aim. It can't fire (except if the target stands in front).

The doberman can move. This gundrone can't.

Actually, no one said inclination, you said horizontal. Now, the gun *can't* aim or move, at all, but I understand that you're suggesting a house rule. Assuming that house rule, my point is that the gun has to be facing the right way before it can even try to aim and fire; the user's arm has to move and roughly aim the gun. As I said twice. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Seth]

I think the drone does have to be flying, unless it has a turret/flex mount (and the pistol-drone obviously doesn't—it's a pistol). Honestly, if you're *not* playing up the fixed nature of most vehicle weapons, you're cheating all the people with arms, right?

I usually use the flexible gun mount on my drones (even though it costs an extra slot) to avoid loads of piloting rolls. I also like the fact that I can use the laser sight mounted on the gun mount as a target designator, and FLIR camera.

[Udoshi]

Assuming that house rule, my point is that the gun has to be facing the right way before it can even try to aim and fire; the user's arm has to move and roughly aim the gun. As I said twice. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

A doberman doesn't need to move - its gun is a turret mount, so whether the drone itself can move or not is irrelevant.

I'm not suggesting a houserule - i'm suggesting that an adjustable, computer controlled bipod(two legs) satisfies the requirement to aim in a limited capacity, just like you said. I think you're missing the point entirely - we don't want to make it walk, just give it a firing arc- seth's presented a fairly reasonable case on how it could work, and you should re-read it.

[hobgoblin]

limping or crawling propulsion systems may be better options. Especially limping as it allows limited directional control (and 1 meter/min movement).