How do you immortal? Options

[Ramaloke]

My point still stands though, I mean if your argument against a 85 BP quality that adds 40BP of ability mods and nabs immunity to age (unimportant in almost every game out there), pathogens and toxins and your argument is "Well, normally you have to wear intimidating armor to get something like that...." then it sort of falls flat.

-edit-

Not throwing it in as an afterthought, throwing it in at the cost of 45 BP. Thats not an afterthought, thats more than 10% of your BP allotment.

[Whipstitch]

Look, your options for full chemical seals are entirely self-contained suits with an air supply of an hour or so by the RAW, and the most available ones aren't particularly good against anything else nor do they fit in everywhere. That's not trivial. I'm not saying that what you're suggesting should be impossible. I'm saying that 85 build points for the package you've slapped together is still light.

[Yerameyahu]

There's a big difference between a full-face mask and an innate power, that's all. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) (Also, you conveniently forget injection vectors.) My question is, why are you even mentioning these powers? The player asked to be old; that's Immunity to Age. Done.

Nevermind that you're breaking the attribute-BP limit by giving 4 points of attributes outside of the 200, and that you can't even have a Magic rating if you've spent 85 out of the max 35 BP on positive qualities, either. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Whipstitch]

It doesn't even really hit me as needing that, honestly. Just say a spike baby and be done with it. How long a healthy regular elf can live is a bit of an open question anyway.

[Yerameyahu]

Agreed. That's the point, really: 'why are you giving him power (and powers) for no reason?' (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Ramaloke]

Look, your options for full chemical seals are entirely self-contained suits with an air supply of an hour or so by the RAW, and the most available ones aren't particularly good against anything else nor do they fit in everywhere. That's not trivial. I'm not saying that what you're suggesting should be impossible. I'm saying that 85 build points for the package you've slapped together is still light.

And Im disagreeing, I dont think its too light at all. Its around the right ballpark in my opinion.

There's a big difference between a full-face mask and an innate power, that's all. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) My question is, why are you even mentioning these powers? The player asked to be old; that's Immunity to Age. Done.

Nevermind that you're breaking the attribute-BP limit by giving 4 points of attributes outside of the 200, and that you can't even have a Magic rating if you've spent 85 out of the max 35 BP on positive qualities, either. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

There is precedent for qualities that are outside the normal 35 point max, every infected quality and drake quality off the top of my head. The guy was talking about immortal elfs, which have immunity to pathogens and toxins as well as age so I was trying to satisfy the topic of the thread.

Note that the guy would have to be an elf (30BP), would take the Immortal Elf quality (85 BP) and have "Immunity to Pathogens and Toxins" which is Armor 4 against such things with a magic of 2. Not super amazing. To get better hed have to up his magic. For another 65 BP he has a magic of 7 and has armor 14.

At that point you might as well throw in magician (since its not part and parcel with immortal elf, Frosty for example had latent talents which suggests that a quality still needs to be taken).

Im not super worried about it being unbalanced guys.

[Yerameyahu]

The Infected qualities *give* a Magic rating. They're more like races. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I should apologize. I didn't realize you were literally designing an Immortal Elf quality. The OP specifically asked for non-Immortal-Elf suggestions, because it's unthinkable to have a player be one. I misunderstood, thinking that you were designing an immortal (lowercase) Elf (completely explained by 'spike baby').

In that case, it should be a race, it's incredibly weak, and it's vastly undercosted. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) You might as well let someone play a dragon; yes, I know you've got a thread about that, but it's still insane. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Ramaloke]

In this thread or the other my point was to show that it was indeed possible to do these things on a level of parity with other shadowrunners. The dragon thread being a good example. Im not going to say that the dragon character I worked up using the april fools rules isn't powerful, it certainly is, but no more powerful than a superbly cybered out troll.

Really the only reason why such things seem to be frowned upon is that they step on the toes of the "heroes of cannon".

People who dislike these ideas seem to do so on general principle and or roleplaying concerns as opposed to actual concerns of balance. Both have merit. I understand both the principle behind it and the roleplaying concern, but at the same time I think that some people are a bit staid and comfortable with the way things are and that there is a fair bit of reaction to anything that shakes the boat.

I think an elf magician with those qualities would be balanced in comparison to the other runners and does a decent job of portraying a young or unexperienced immortal elf.

[Yerameyahu]

My point, here, is that anything balanced for normal play is, by definition, not an Immortal Elf. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Sephiroth]

My point, here, is that anything balanced for normal play is, by definition, not an Immortal Elf. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

He's not talking about making an Immortal Elf, Yerameyahu. He's talking about making an immortal elf, just as in his other thread he talks about making a significantly young dragon, not a bloody Great Dragon.

[Ramaloke]

Do you seriously find this overpowered? Do you find that it doesn't represent an unexperienced or young immortal elf well enough?

Immortal Elf
Cost: 85 BP
This quality is available to elves and does not count towards the normal limit of 35 BP in positive qualities. Increase the base mental abilities of the standard elf metatype by +1. This also increases their ability maximum and augmented maximums. Immortal Elves are naturally magical beings and so have a starting magic score of 2 with a maximum of 7. They also have Immunity (Age, Toxins, Pathogens). Immortal Elves still require the Adept, Magician, or Mystic Adept qualities if they want to learn spells, adept powers or magical skills.

[Yerameyahu]

Wow, that's even worse. Enhanced maximums, +2 Magic, and boosted max Magic?

Yes, I think it's both overpowered and not representative of an Immortal Elf.

Sephiroth, that's wrong. He is talking explicitly about 'Immortal Elf', a category entirely separate from an Elf who happens to be immortal. There's no Great Immortal Elf, either, so I'm positive I'm not making the error you accuse me of. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Whipstitch]

It's also not about whether it's game breaking so much as it is about the fit. Like it or not, the SR4 devs had some weird ideas about a rarity tax on exotic metatypes and acquiring racial advantages since such advantages are basically the equivalent of positive qualities but don't count under any sort of 35 bp cap. So if you want to allow immortal elves and you want them to be jarringly better than the other exotic metatypes-- particularly drakes-- than by all means go ahead and use the rules you've ginned up. It even makes a measure of sense since immortal elves featured in the fiction are really talented if not outright Mary Sue-ish and just plain better than other people. I'd still hold however, that the OP seemed to be asking about immortal elves primarily because he didn't seem to know much about the alternatives like spike babies. If he still wants to go the immortal route after having been informed about other stuff that's his prerogative. Sometimes letting one PC be special can work out pretty well and make a good plot hook. But with that said I'm not really so sure that a one-size-fits-all IE template is really a good idea.

This post has been edited by Whipstitch: Dec 15 2010, 07:31 PM

[Ramaloke]

Its actually +1 Magic, they just start off with a magic attribute instead of having to take the magician quality to get it.

Also, Unbalanced? Compare that to a Drake.

Drake
Cost: 65
A metahuman with this quality is a drake, a unique creature able to transform into a small dracoform at will. They gain the Shift (Drake) power and a Magic attribute of 1. The dracoform has the powers of Elemental Attack (Fire), Enhanced Senses (Hearing, Low-Light Vision, Smell, Thermographic Sense), Hardened Armor 4, Mystic Armor 4, and Natural Weapons (Bite/Claws: (Str/2+2)P, AP 0). Drake characters receive additional abilities and attribute modifiers dependent upon their dracoform, as described in their individual descriptions.
Characters with any of the Infected qualities, any quality that grants Resonance, and non-metahuman characters may not take this quality. The Drake quality is also incompatible with the Latent Dracomorphosis quality.
Dragons or other drakes that possess the Dragonspeech power (p. 296, SR4) may teach drake initiates the ability as a metamagic technique.

Such Drake ability mods do increase the maximums and augmented maximums as well. A Western Dragon gets +4 Body, +5 Strength and +1 Reach on top of Mystic Armor, Hardened Armor, and an elemental attack. Thats 9 Ability mods and a magic score of 1. All for 65 BP. An Immortal Elf as per my homebrew quality gets +5 ability mods and the immunities.

If you think mine is unbalanced everything in runners companion is far far more unbalanced than my proposed IE.

@ Whipstitch: Jarringly better? Hardly. The above should explain why.

[Yerameyahu]

It's +2 Magic, because you started with 0.

Drakes have plenty (*plenty*) of weaknesses to balance it out. You'd have a hard time finding anyone who'll play a drake. In addition, mental attribs are significantly better (more valuable, harder to get) than physical attribs (which is what the Drake gets).

[Whipstitch]

They also face rather profound limitations. Drake powers and advantages only apply in drake form. They can't benefit from most gear or ANY 'ware in their dracoforms and a hardened armor of 4 won't actually -do- anything against just about any armed attack that actually hits them, since with a net hit the DV of even a hold out pistol is effectively a 5. Again, you need to look at these things in -context-. Making a Drake that can actually -do- anything worthwhile with their advantages is usually pretty dang tricky. Making a drake typically results in a character that has two forms which are both mediocre. Your elf, on the other hand, is a walking pile of bonus attributes.

This post has been edited by Whipstitch: Dec 15 2010, 07:41 PM

[Fortinbras]

Propose that the immortal elf must have a geas to follow, for instance, one non-harmful action another PC commands him once per game and watch the player backtrack to wanting to play a human hacker so fast it will make your head spin.

If, instead, he thinks that is a neat idea and proposes exposition, then let him play it. Let him play the crap out of that immortal elf! Otherwise just print out a certificate that says he wins at Shadowrun and hope that placates his ego.

[Ramaloke]

They also face rather profound limitations. Drake powers and advantages only apply in drake form. They can't benefit from most gear or 'ware in their dracoforms and a hardened armor of 4 won't actually -do- anything against just about any armed attack that actually hits them, since with a net hit the DV of even a hold out pistol is effectively a 5. Again, you need to look at these things in -context-. Making a Drake that can actually -do- anything worthwhile with their advantages is usually pretty dang tricky. Making a drake typically results in a character that has two forms which are both mediocre. Your elf, on the other hand, is a walking pile of bonus attributes.

Yes! You are right, a hardened armor of 4 is pretty low... sort of like armor to pathogens and toxins 4, the only toxin in the 20th Anniversary Core Book with a rating of lower than 4 is Sleep Deprivation, Tear Gas has a rating of 5, and the next lowest rating is Nausea gas at 6.

Ok, so if you find my representation of a young immortal elf unpalatable what do you suggest. Stop naysaying and actually help (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) . Write up your own version of the quality and we'll see where we differ.

@ Yeremeyahu: Sure, you go from having no magic to 2 magic, but you also dont get any extra magic for picking up Magician. A Magician Immortal Elf would start off with 2 as opposed to 1 with a cap of 7.

[Sephiroth]

Wow, that's even worse. Enhanced maximums, +2 Magic, and boosted max Magic?

Yes, I think it's both overpowered and not representative of an Immortal Elf.

Sephiroth, that's wrong. He is talking explicitly about 'Immortal Elf', a category entirely separate from an Elf who happens to be immortal. There's no Great Immortal Elf, either, so I'm positive I'm not making the error you accuse me of. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Do you find that it doesn't represent an unexperienced or young immortal elf well enough?

I think an elf magician with those qualities would be balanced in comparison to the other runners and does a decent job of portraying a young or unexperienced immortal elf.

I'm well aware of the nonexistence of 'Great Immortal Elves,' and that wasn't what I was saying, so I'd appreciate it if you didn't insult my knowledge of canon and use smiley faces to cover it up kthnx.

By RAW, it is impossible to make or emulate epic-level characters and already-well-established NPC's, contrary to what seems to be your biggest concern. What this means is that you cannot meaningfully stat out as PC's Hestaby, Harlequin, Aithne, Ehran, Perianwyr, Damon, Art Dankwather, Damien Knight, Fastjack, or any of the nosferatu leaders of the Ordo Maximus. With the exception of Hestaby, most of the race options for those characters already exist (whether in Ramaloke's proposal, the Dragon joke rules, or RAW), but attempting to make any of them as PC's is an utterly meaningless endeavor, because 400 BP cannot accurately reflect the experience, knowledge, and resources that these characters have at their disposal. So no, he's not talking about Immortal Elf, because an Immortal Elf is an established canonical character. Every canonical IE is vastly more powerful than any character built around Ramaloke's quality. He really is just talking about an elf who happens to be immortal and perhaps knows it, which in this case is essentially identical to an inexperienced immortal elf.

[Yerameyahu]

The Hardened Armor can't be raised, and does basically nothing ever. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) In this, again, it's totally unlike those dual Immunities.

I think that chargen rules for Immortal Elves isn't on topic for this thread.

Psh, Sephiroth, who's insulting who about canon now? An Immortal Elf is not an immortal elf. Please don't insult my use of smiley faces and cover it with stupid abbreviations. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) There, did we get it out of our systems?

[MJBurrage]

1. Thread title aside (due to the original poster not knowing any better) he was not asking about immortal elves, he was asking about spike babies.
2. I don't remember anything from the original poster that implied the player wanted power, simply an interesting story.

With that pointed out, I see no reason that you cannot just make an elf character per the standard rules, and say that you are a spike baby. Regular elves live at least 300 years, and look twenty something for almost the whole time.

So an elf born during a mana spike circa 1888, would be 184 years old, and barring some past trauma, look about the same age as all the under 60-year-old elves born since 2011.

Admittedly, the player would need a good background story to explain why such a character still has starting-character level stats, but all characters should have good background stories.


I love Dumpshock, but this thread has become a good example of the complaints about us I hear elsewhere. A simple question was asked, with a simple answer (spike baby); and we now have pages of responses alternating between arguing over playing immortals, and the evils of power gamers.

[Sephiroth]

Where exactly are you even getting this, that we're discussing an Immortal Elf as opposed to an immortal elf? I do not understand. From the quality name, perhaps?

[Yerameyahu]

No, that's the entire point. You missed it. Ramaloke is statting an Immortal Elf (he said so more than once), while the OP only wants 'an elf who is immortal' (actually, just an elf who is 150). The difference is the difference between a Jeep Cherokee (automobile) and a Cherokee (Native American). They are totally unrelated things.

[Ramaloke]

-snip-
I think that chargen rules for Immortal Elves isn't on topic for this thread.
-/snip-

To which I respond with the opening post on the topic:

I have a new player coming in, and he want's to play a hundred years plus old elf. I've explained to him that the only way I know for that to happen is if he was one of the immortals. I'm looking for info on how to do that out side of a spirit-pact, and whether that is acceptable for a PC. Any tips would be greatly appreciated.

So Id say we're pretty well within the scope of this thread. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

All I'm trying to say is that playing an immortal elf (genetically similar to Harlequin, only just hitting the streets and shadowrunning not with some 10,000 years of experience and magical initiation), is perfectly within the scope of a player character.

[Yerameyahu]

"I've explained to him that the only way I know for that to happen is if he was one of the immortals." This means 'Immortal Elves are not in the scope of this topic'.