[X] My Assistant

[Ascalaphus]

This whole combat hacking was poorly conceived. Yes, it happens in Ghost in the Shell. But in GitS, people have cyberbrains. And a reason for letting them online, despite the obvious risks.

It's like someone thought "well, hackers in SR should be able to do that too" without exploring why cyberbrains in GitS are online, and what kind of threat level hacking does or doesn't pose to make it sane to do so.

[klinktastic]

I tend to agree. Cyberware hacking should net you the ability to impose maybe some negative modifiers, like a -2 to dice pools while hacked. The problem is, that with either DNI or slaved 'wares, you'll have to 1. hack a high firewall commlink, decrypt programs, establish account access, then "send commands" to the cyberware in question. Now, in VR, that's still going to take quite a few turns. Most likely, you'll be scanned, analyzed, and detected and be forced to waste IPs in cybercombat. It's just not really practical to do in a combat situation.

[Mardrax]

Gives the hacker who forgot he might be needing a gun something to do though.
And I can definitely see the use in, say, plundering the database of a cybereye's recording unit, or spamming up its Imagelink.

[klinktastic]

Gives the hacker who forgot he might be needing a gun something to do though.
And I can definitely see the use in, say, plundering the database of a cybereye's recording unit, or spamming up its Imagelink.

At that point, bring a drone, hack a drone, or hack a vehicle. Be much cooler to hack a parked vehicle and ram it into the baddies.

[Yerameyahu]

I think it should be an option, as long as you follow all the existing hurdles and drawbacks, including (again) the fact that external 'ware won't have wireless. I just don't think the rules support exists for making attacks at all (after all, legit users can't command cyberware that way). The other examples on Unwired p102 are fine.

[CanRay]

Upload the command program: "LarryCurlyMoeShemp V3.0".

[Seth]

Well this was a fun thread...I thought the answer would be obvious.

I think we all agree that it will be very hard or impossible to do in a combat situation. It is much more likely to be done I think as trojan: when this happens redline yourself. I am tempted think that actually you have as much control as you do over a drone: at the end of the day all a cyber arm is a set of motors and a set of sensors and thats all a drone is. I fully agree it will be fun trying to shoot something (many many minuses) but it should be fairly easy to reach for the throat and squeeze: you cannot easily move your neck away from your own shoulder, so the relative movements when you are throwing yourself around are irrelevant.

As far as the external ware not having wireless, I think thats what the technomancer's echo "touch link" or something is for. Mind you if the technomancer can subdue the cyborg, they are a pretty buff technomancer.

Overall as an offensive activity I think I am against it: I like the idea that there is a point in cyberware, and that it should be powerful. Otherwise we would just be playing magicrun.

[Yerameyahu]

As a legit cyberlimb 'wearer', you have precisely zero ability to control it as a drone. Why should an external hacker have infinitely more? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I still disagree that you should be able to make melee attacks, especially without the normal (better than ranged) defense pool. After all, it's aiming, fine control, etc. just as much as anything. Attacks in SR4 are attacks. If you allow anything like that, you have to let agents/Pilots do it, and then everyone with cyberware gets 12 IPs. Bleh.

[Draco18s]

I think thats what the technomancer's echo "touch link" or something is for.

Echo != Everyone.

"A hacker" can't use a technomancer echo to do things that are normally impossible, possible.

Technos hacking a dude's cyber after a touch? Sure, that's clever (at which point the GM says: "sure you can strangle him" or "no, you can't shoot his buddies"). Saying that this allows anyone anywhere to do the same thing: not valid.

[Seth]

"A hacker" can't use a technomancer echo to do things that are normally impossible, possible.

Skinlink
A technomancer with this echo gains the ability to use his skin as connection to other devices, similar to an integral skinlink (p. 318, SR4). The technomancer can use this link to hack any device he touches, even if wireless signals are jammed. Note that the device does not need to have skinlink adaptation. Two technomancers with this echo may mentally communicate with each other simply by touching.

I am not an expert on technomancers, and haven't played one with this ability. It read to me as though it would work, although I assumed you would have to subdue the cyborg with the chainsword and machine pistol first...

Edit: I think you would have to be in skin contact for the duration of the hack anyway...hence the need to subdue. This would probably work though if the cyborg was holding you with the cyberarm

[Yerameyahu]

No, that's basically what the skinlink echo is for. Draco18s meant that Technomancers are super-rare.

[Seth]

As a legit cyberlimb 'wearer', you have precisely zero ability to control it as a drone. Why should an external hacker have infinitely more? I still disagree that you should be able to make melee attacks, especially without the normal (better than ranged) defense pool. After all, it's aiming, fine control, etc. just as much as anything. Attacks in SR4 are attacks. If you allow anything like that, you have to let agents/Pilots do it, and then everyone with cyberware gets 12 IPs. Bleh.

Your argument in favour of game balance is irrefutable.

[Yerameyahu]

That said, these abilities should exist. The legit owner should be able to control the limb, etc. It's just that the rules don't exist. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Seth]

Well if I am GMing its easy: if they manage to plant a trojan assassin effect in the cyberware it will probably work (the story now is in getting the trojan in place), and if I want to get the players cyber hand to misbehave it can do. I don't think my players will try the 4 cyber arms plan, and if they do I will invite them to watch Spiderman 2, and see how well it worked for Dr Octopus....

Wait that gets me thinking...a backpack with four drone arms...each with a sub machine gun

[Yerameyahu]

Hah, that's been done, sadly. Search for it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

[Seth]

Hah, that's been done, sadly. Search for it

lol

Its no worse really than 4 hover drones accompanying you, and probably a lot less bad than a gyro mounted panther assault cannon. Very few of these ideas can be used outside of a war scenario.

I'm currently running the Denver missions, and the checkpoints make getting even pistols though really challenging, which is much more the kind of game I am happy with. The main source of powerful firearms is from the fallen bodies of enemies.

[oinopion]

I'm still not sure why hacking cyberarm is allowed. You use it as your body, you feel it as your body and you control it as your body -- same as jumped-in drone. And you can't hack jumped-in drone, can you?

[Seth]

I'm still not sure why hacking cyberarm is allowed. You use it as your body, you feel it as your body and you control it as your body -- same as jumped-in drone. And you can't hack jumped-in drone, can you?

See page 102 of Unwired: "Hacking cyberware". One of the given examples is "Seizing control of a cyberarm and using it to attack others, or even the cyberlimbed character."
Note that a cyberarm needs to be computerised, but it is probably not wireless...and even if it is it's probably signal 0, so it will be very hard to physically get in a position to hack


On a separate note "you can't hack jumped-in drone, can you?"...huh? you can't? Tell me more!

[Stahlseele]

Take control of Arm.
Grab owners Genitals.
Squeze.

[Seth]

Take control of Arm.
Grab owners Genitals.
Squeze.

Twisted...shudders...I was just going to go for the throat

[CeeJay]

Take control of Arm.
Grab owners Genitals.
Redline Strength attribute of cyberarm
Squeze.

There, fixed that for you (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

-CJ

[oinopion]

On a separate note "you can't hack jumped-in drone, can you?"...huh? you can't? Tell me more!

Uhm... I think someone hacked my brain into believing something quite untrue. Just ignore my post.

[Stahlseele]

Twisted...shudders...I was just going to go for the throat

*bows* ^^

There, fixed that for you (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

-CJ

Nah, victim would black out from redlining damage . .

[Ascalaphus]

Piloting your own cyberlimbs.. I hadn't thought of that, but it's an intrigueing thought. It'd be bad for game balance to allow too many (independent) IPs with pilot programs though. Maybe just keeping the body physically balanced mandates that the body parts work together instead of independently?

Also, for full effect you'd need to replace all your limbs and torso with cyber. The other way to become a cyborg, but with interesting differences;
* You might keep more Essence, so you can still get implants like a Simsense Booster and attach a Simsense Accelerator for 5IPs
* You're still considered a person, not an object for purposes of magic resistance. Could be good or bad.
* Much, much higher possible attributes than a drone.
* Much, much higher possible armor than a drone.
* You don't ignore Stun damage.
* Double dip damage; anything your body fails to soak you get as biofeedback

That last one cuts down on the attractiveness I suppose. It'd be more interesting to borgify a "friend" and pilot remotely.

[MortVent]

double click, remove dick (one way or another)

to quote one of my TMs.

But up to the GM to determine, with discussion since there is a lot of grey area in what you can do by the core rules (far too many situations for RAW to cover)