alt.WAR, Fixing War's problems by writing a new book Options

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

If I recall my Shadowrun lore correctly, people are trying to make a secondary skyhook out of Africa so they won't be that much dependant of a monopoly.
Brazil does have a rocket launch facility in Alcântara, Maranhão (here). Launching rockets from the Ecuator line is much cheaper fuel-wise, and if you can get a site whose climate is stable (like, it always rains, but only from 4pm to 5pm and no strong winds) you have a greater launch window.

Now, I don't know if Aztechnology does have space technology, perhaps they would want a facility deep inside the jungle, away from prying eyes to make their own experiments into space (does Blood Magic work in space?)?

[sabs]

I was thinking the Locus could be a Jackpoint rumor mentioned by the Dragon that posts on Jackpoint (whose handle I have forgotten) or maybe Laughing Man.

the idea I had for the 'excuse' for the war was this.

AZT is working on a super nanite version of Agent Orange. It's Nasty, it's self replicating, and it only requires dumping a few nanohives into an area. We'll say it can deforest a square mile of jungle in a matter of hours. They let it slip in Caracas that they're working on this in AZT controlled Columbia.

Amazonia freaks out when they find out. Normally they would hire a shadowrun team, but this is too important. They use official Amazonian Spec Ops guys. Who get caught, on camera, red handed, blowing up a Pharmaceutical Lab that's producing a key antidote for VITAS III, which is a growing concern because there's been a few isolated outbreaks of it recently. (Vitas II mutated)

The AZT brings this evidence to a rare joint session of the UN and Corporate Court, or maybe to both independently Which agrees to look the other way while AZT brings forth the hurt on those evil Amazonians and their eco-terrorists.

Caracas petitions the UN for protection, and the Peace Keeping force is born.
Not to mention it's an excuse for everyone to get ring side seats, and kebitz.

[Kot]

Skyhook doesn't work in south america, weather, if I remember correctly.

Aztlan has northern Mexico which would be a much better spot for a Skyhook.

The higher it would be situated, the better, as far as i remember. Northwest of Manaus would be good, for example.
I dunno, need to ask for a physics/astrotech consult.

[sabs]

Bogota might be an amusing place for it (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
That could be another reason for the issues.

They want to use Bogota for their skyhook. (And this might give them their own base in space, which could perhaps allow them to throw off the worry about the Corp Court.)

Amazon's super-grow is causing issues even in Bogota. The trees are growing back so fast that its' interfering with the launch site? (that seems dubious) but maybe.

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

I was thinking the Locus could be a Jackpoint rumor mentioned by the Dragon that posts on Jackpoint (whose handle I have forgotten) or maybe Laughing Man.

the idea I had for the 'excuse' for the war was this.

AZT is working on a super nanite version of Agent Orange. It's Nasty, it's self replicating, and it only requires dumping a few nanohives into an area. We'll say it can deforest a square mile of jungle in a matter of hours. They let it slip in Caracas that they're working on this in AZT controlled Columbia.

Amazonia freaks out when they find out. Normally they would hire a shadowrun team, but this is too important. They use official Amazonian Spec Ops guys. Who get caught, on camera, red handed, blowing up a Pharmaceutical Lab that's producing a key antidote for VITAS III, which is a growing concern because there's been a few isolated outbreaks of it recently. (Vitas II mutated)

The AZT brings this evidence to a rare joint session of the UN and Corporate Court, or maybe to both independently Which agrees to look the other way while AZT brings forth the hurt on those evil Amazonians and their eco-terrorists.

Caracas petitions the UN for protection, and the Peace Keeping force is born.
Not to mention it's an excuse for everyone to get ring side seats, and kebitz.

Seconded!

[Doc Chase]

I was thinking the Locus could be a Jackpoint rumor mentioned by the Dragon that posts on Jackpoint (whose handle I have forgotten) or maybe Laughing Man.

I wouldn't have them spread the rumor; I'd have them confirm it. Perhaps with even a touch of surprise from Frosty.
Get a wizkid from Jackpoint, maybe the elf who got chased out of UCAS in Ghost Cartels (Haze, I think?) or Talon saying they've picked up something shiny on the astral while out on a job in the South (plenty of work down there) and they were going to look at it again. Hmmm.

Aztechnology might be after something different down there. I was on an overflight near <location> with my team headed towards Rio and I caught an astral glow while checking our backtrail. Might see if we can check it out on the way back.

Take it from me. Don't.

There are longer memories in Aztlan than we expected, my friend.

Perhaps it's time to bring the past to light.

Fuck. I guess it's time to pack my bags.

[hermit]

Yup, but we can work with this.

Now, for the timeline. I must admit I am totally lost there. Do we have anything solid save that they invaded in Nov 14, 2072?

[sabs]

Caracas:
Spy Games:
Everyone and their dutch uncle is trying to figure out which mercs got hired by whome for what. Amazonian and AZT spies are running against each other in the alleyways, trying to obtain each other's secrets
War: It's only 100 km away and if you're a Merc group trying to prove your metal, this is where you get hired
Running: Run into the Amazon for 'stuffs', sabotage against AZT or Amazonia, 4 countries, and a half a dozen corps all involved in various dealings.

It's got something for everyone.

While we're here..
Amazonia is: Brazil, Bolivia, Paraguay, Uruguay, Suriname, Guyane, Guyana, Basin side of Columbia and Venezuella.

What happened to Chile, Peru, and Argentina?

[Doc Chase]

Yup, but we can work with this.

Now, for the timeline. I must admit I am totally lost there. Do we have anything solid save that they invaded in Nov 14, 2072?

We make a timeline. We have enough motivations and dirt we can make a shadow buildup to the invasion date. The declaration will be Nov 11, the invasion Nov 14.

[Grinder]

AZT is working on a super nanite version of Agent Orange. It's Nasty, it's self replicating, and it only requires dumping a few nanohives into an area. We'll say it can deforest a square mile of jungle in a matter of hours. They let it slip in Caracas that they're working on this in AZT controlled Columbia.

Why would Aztech work on such a nasty nanite Agent Orange?

[Grinder]

I wouldn't have them spread the rumor; I'd have them confirm it. Perhaps with even a touch of surprise from Frosty.
Get a wizkid from Jackpoint, maybe the elf who got chased out of UCAS in Ghost Cartels (Haze, I think?) or Talon saying they've picked up something shiny on the astral while out on a job in the South (plenty of work down there) and they were going to look at it again. Hmmm.

Did you make the quotes of Laughing Man and the others up or is that from a book? I'm totally lost on this, I have to admit.

[hermit]

Okay.

Nov 11, 2072: Aztlan, after catching a Black Ops team red handed in a top secret research facility, declares war on Amazonia.
Nov 14, 2072: Aztlan troops cross the border to Amazonia at multiple points. A strong push is made towards disputed Bogota, another heads into Venezuela.


... War! really doesn't give us anything else, does it?

Now, I don't know if Aztechnology does have space technology, perhaps they would want a facility deep inside the jungle, away from prying eyes to make their own experiments into space (does Blood Magic work in space?)?

They have their own space station, the Spindle, so it's fair to assume they do.

AZT is working on a super nanite version of Agent Orange. It's Nasty, it's self replicating, and it only requires dumping a few nanohives into an area. We'll say it can deforest a square mile of jungle in a matter of hours. They let it slip in Caracas that they're working on this in AZT controlled Columbia.

Amazonia freaks out when they find out. Normally they would hire a shadowrun team, but this is too important. They use official Amazonian Spec Ops guys. Who get caught, on camera, red handed, blowing up a Pharmaceutical Lab that's producing a key antidote for VITAS III, which is a growing concern because there's been a few isolated outbreaks of it recently. (Vitas II mutated)

Of course, the first thing is a rumor, because honestly, why should Aztech be THAT stuopid. But Amazonia believed it and blew up a pharmaceuticals lab where Aztlan is researching HMHVV cures. They also kill a celebrity who'S recently bbeen infected by ghoulism and isreceiving treatment there for good measure.

I wouldn't have them spread the rumor; I'd have them confirm it. Perhaps with even a touch of surprise from Frosty.
Get a wizkid from Jackpoint, maybe the elf who got chased out of UCAS in Ghost Cartels (Haze, I think?) or Talon saying they've picked up something shiny on the astral while out on a job in the South (plenty of work down there) and they were going to look at it again. Hmmm.

I'd have it remain a rumor. Maybe have a couple immortals discuss it. ("It's ... such a thing? They now want Amazonia's?" - "Apparently. Why else could they push south from Bogota? There's only that darned jungle there. Only other thing it's good for is the orchids." - "You are so gay." - "You so will soon have no ears at all." - "LOL! I'll see you, sucker.")

What happened to Chile, Peru, and Argentina?

Peru used to be a japanese colony and now is trying to come to terms with it'S past. It still has JIS troops, too.
Argentina is the other reasonably powerful nation in South America and (apart from being pretty much a fascist state) has a huge army pointing northwards in case Amazonia wants the Pampas.
Chile is a corp state and more of a rump state, IIRC.

[Blade]

The way I see it:

In 2049, Amazonia annexes Colombia to "protect if from Aztlan".
In the 2050s Bogota is an Amazonian city surrounded by Aztlan moutains. Aztlan uses the city to smuggle its goods into Amazonia and is satisfied with this situation.
In 2063 Aztlan loses part of Denver. In 2064 it loses the Yucatan and Aztechonology's CEO is killed. Aztlan needs to show the world as well as its own population that it's not down yet. It covertly starts a movement for the Colombian Nation and publicly supports it. To show their support, they invade Bogota and create the Colombian state ("under Aztlan protection") in 2065.

In the 2070s, nothing has really changed for Colombians: those who supported Aztlan are now in charge and those who supported Amazonia are now the victims. Those who just support Colombia just tend to disappear. Now it's Amazonia's turn to support the Colombian rebels. Aztlan actions against the cartels go against the agenda of important people in and around Bogota.

Aztlan's actions might serve their expansionist agenda. A full blown war would make things easier for them, but they want to appear as the people pacifying the area, not causing the war. Plus they really don't like Amazonia.
Amazonia wants to stop Aztlan's expansion. They can't start a war for the same reason as Aztlan, but they feel that, with the rebels and the cartel help, they could win it. Plus they really don't like Aztlan.
Cartels wants to keep their control and influence and they've been stockpiling weapons during (and maybe even before) the tempo crisis. Some get support from Amazonia (directly or indirectly) other have support or influence in the Colombian population.
Colombian rebels wants to free Colombia, and everyone's trying to manipulate them into supporting them.
So everybody wants war. Whatever starts it is nearly irrelevant. It could be Aztlan getting a proof that Amazonia is supporting cartels or rebels. It could be Colombians rebels starting a revolution...
And you have a war with 4 sides.

Why Bogota? For the Colombian, it's the Capital city. For the cartels, it's more or less their turf. For Amazonia and Aztlan, it's still the biggest city on the border and it has a strong symbolic value. Whoever controls it, controls the whole region (or so they think).

It makes sense to me this way.

[sabs]

Why would Aztech work on such a nasty nanite Agent Orange?

2 reasons
1) Because it'll make deforesting the Amazon that much faster
2) Because it's a great big shiny candy apple to wave infront of Amazonia to get them to do something stupid.
3) Who says they actually worked on it (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) maybe they only made it look like they were.

[sabs]

Okay.

Nov 11, 2072: Aztlan, after catching a Black Ops team red handed in a top secret research facility, declares war on Amazonia.
Nov 14, 2072: Aztlan troops cross the border to Amazonia at multiple points. A strong push is made towards disputed Bogota, another heads into Venezuela.


... War! really doesn't give us anything else, does it?

Wait there's a problem with that.
Bogota is in AZT protected "Free Columbia" Since the 2060's
AZT is already in Bogota, how can they make a push towards it?

[Stahlseele]

Why would Aztech work on such a nasty nanite Agent Orange?

Why do people climb mountains?
because they are there.
why do dogs lick their own balls?
BECAUSE THEY CAN

[Doc Chase]

Did you make the quotes of Laughing Man and the others up or is that from a book? I'm totally lost on this, I have to admit.

Oh hell, I made those up.

[sabs]

I liked those btw. That's awesome stuff.

[hermit]

Yeah, was nice writing. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Also, I wouldn't spend too much time in Bogota. Just the skinny - what the war oes there, why there is war and how the war is affecting the city and changing it from the pre-war filesdump incorrectly marked as War!. We have much mor eground to cover. Those two cities engulfed in combat, and the jungle. We shouldn't make war's mistake and turn this into too much of a Bogota sourcebook.

So I guess we keep the official stuff so far as we have something solid (which is mercifully few points) and work around it, I guess.

[sabs]

well we alraedy ixnaied the stupid trees (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
But yes.

Hermit, can you put together a frame/outline of the book so far?

Amazonia/Aztlan war:
Caracas info
Maracaibos info
Bogota Info

That's the 3 major cities/bases of operations.

Amazonian Forward Base(s)
AZT forward base in the Basin
Need a quick write up just to mention. As they're both locations you could find yourself working out of potentially.

War Time Line
Front Line demarcations. Where is the fighting happening, how is it going etc.

Military structure
AZT military what does it look like
Amazonian Military what the heck does THAT look like
Peace Keeping Forces: what do those look like.

[hermit]

Allright, so this is alt.War! one: rumble in the Jungle? Basically Az/Am?

[sabs]

Allright, so this is alt.War! one: rumble in the Jungle? Basically Az/Am?

Well, I was thinking that could be the major setting?

We should still cover other "hot spots around the world"
The Chinese Land Wars?
Israel vs the Islamic States
What's going on in Europe?

Something also about Matrix Pay Per View Blood Sports?
Desert Wars!
Survivor! (Which is alot like Karoline's Shadow Wars! Idea.) Every year Teams of Mercs/Shadowrunners are air-lifted into some remote location for a 5 Million Nuyen prize, Last Team/Man Standing. Remote location, only the equipment they can bring with them. You can pay extra to get the full BTL 'real time' sensation (it's not really real time)

[hermit]

Either we basically follow War!'S setup, or we focus our efforts on one region only and release a comprehensive guide for the war there. Issue 1: Az/Am, Issue 2: Desert/Rad Wars, Issue 3: Five Kingdoms (The Chinsese Land Wars), Issue 4: You say Jihad, I say Crusade (Frank's scenario, could also involve Israel and Venice), Issue 5: Russia/Yakut/Baikal, Issue 6: PPG/Japan trade war (oceanic war).

And we should also publish the rules and backdrop book. Fixed stats, fixed rules, all you ever wanted to know about warfare in the 2070s ... possibly covering topics relevant to each war in each book. For gear more helos and light armor in Issue 1, save the tanks for the big land wars and ships for the oceanic war ect ect.

[lokii]

Well, let me pile on a few more ideas.

Regarding anything that could damage the forest on a massive scale. Please remember Yucatán, that is exactly what turned that war against the Azzies, so I would think they will be careful in this regard. Knocking out or capturing the Amazonian locus would go a long way to levelling the playing field. Also the location of the locus will be a closely guarded secret. So it would make sense for the Azzies to do some seemingly random forays trying to come closer to it.

I think the periphery of the war zone is very interesting and could provide other not directly war-related adventure opportunities which could be briefly sketched. Panama/Nicaragua would be one such hotspot. There will be some factions that supply the Amazonians, who will have trouble using the Nicaragua Canal, the Corporate Court might want to capitalise on this by stating their neutral stance and allowing such traffic through the Panama Canal, which of course it meant to prop up their trailing operation in Panama. All kinds sabotage missions for normal runners could revolve around this.

Another is the Caribbean League, the Yucatán support network might be reactivated to help the Amazonians this time. The League still hates the Azzies, right? This could lead to Aztlaner naval forces annexing the three League isles closest to the war zone (I marked them on my map, Aruba and the former Netherlands Antilles). They also might blockade Trinidad and Tobago and patrol the northern Amazonian coast between them and probably the northwestern coast of South America beyond the Panama Canal. That's a huge area to cover of course so there is all kinds of opportunities for smuggling related adventures and high sea stuff.

Then there is Lofwyr, he still is the Loremaster and Amazonia is the appointed protector of the Ashes of the Great Tree. So he could at some point intervene in the whole affair maybe a very specific single engagement of some SK special forces related to the Ashes.

[sabs]

Those are all good ideas.

I also want to see:

Matrix Warfare on the Front Lines of Today's Armies

My view of Modern (2070s) warfare has always been that.
1) They're running TacNets
2) There is a constant EW/Cybercombat war going on during any conflict to give 1 side the 'matrix Advantage'
3) Grunts today have more info at their fingertips than they know what to do with.
4) They have a huge amount of Drone support.

It's something we should talk about
AZT is using Drone armies and Tacnets being run by groups of Combat Spyders
While Amazonia is running Thought Linked troops who have access to Mages with Detect Enemy and Detect Life.

A very different setup on each side.

I guess the first thing is.. are we stickign with Azt/Amazonia. I think we've managed to build something that's a worthwhile setup.. and we have enough ideas to actually start building pieces of it.