alt.WAR, Fixing War's problems by writing a new book Options

[Doc Chase]

Yeah, we don't want to do that either. Although it effects what we want to write pretty severely (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I like your idea of an AMZ sanctioned run even better than my Agent Orange idea.. although I guess they could be the same thing. Well, let us know so that you guys can use the setting in a direction you like (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Hah. You know, that might be a hell of a slap in the face.

So Amazonia has been hiring runner teams to infiltrate Azzie locations and disable defenses by way of hacking the security and leaving backdoors and certain files - one of which would be the 'incriminating evidence' of Aztlan's intent to take over Caracas and the tactics of using their special ops teams to sow terror among the locals. Afterward, they would send their sanctioned team in to find this wonderful information, thereby having definitive proof to bring to the UN that Aztlan is being naughty.

By happenstance, or perhaps the team sold their Johnson out, so many things that can happen - the Azzies swap the paydata from the incriminating evidence to information 'proving' Amazonia was the one that sent the kill teams to destabilize Caracas so they could move in, displace the population and 'return the city to nature'. They make a show of stopping the Amazonians, then accuse them on the global stage of trying to wipe their servers of the cruicial evidence, which they publish to the world at large.

Two wrongs don't make a right - but they start a war. By the time the information is vetted false, it's too late to do anything about it.

[sabs]

Now that.. is an awesome double-cross of epic proportions.

And it doesn't have to be the team selling out their johnson.
It could be an AZT spy in Amazonia, or in Caracas.
It could be a pro AZT data analysis guy whose tracking certain shadow information. He gets wind of the run, and they let the run happen.

The Amazonians think the Shadow team double crossed them. AZT cackles with glee.

[Doc Chase]

Tailchasers within tailchasers. Everyone double-crosses everybody, and Caracas explodes.

I love it.

[Stahlseele]

Tailchasers within tailchasers. Everyone double-crosses everybody, and Caracas explodes.

I love it.

Yeah, because you're a twisted being . . no wonder you fit right in with the rest of us ^^

[sabs]

and more importantly.. who the heck knows the truth. It's a beautiful plot hook for someone who wants to run a game based on that pre-war time period.

[Stahlseele]

There is no Truth.
THERE IS ONLY ME.

Truth is entirely subjective.

[Doc Chase]

and more importantly.. who the heck knows the truth. It's a beautiful plot hook for someone who wants to run a game based on that pre-war time period.

Heheh. The amount of Matrix traffic trying to prove or disprove those two pieces of data alone would crash the Denver Nexus. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Grinder]

Either we basically follow War!'S setup, or we focus our efforts on one region only and release a comprehensive guide for the war there. Issue 1: Az/Am, Issue 2: Desert/Rad Wars, Issue 3: Five Kingdoms (The Chinsese Land Wars), Issue 4: You say Jihad, I say Crusade (Frank's scenario, could also involve Israel and Venice), Issue 5: Russia/Yakut/Baikal, Issue 6: PPG/Japan trade war (oceanic war).

Why not release this in episodes?

There's nothing stopping us from writing about the wars in all their glory - but there are many. Let us start with the rewrite/remake of what War! is, then we can branch out where we want to go - Desert Wars, Survivor, Asia, Pirates of the Seven Seas, and so on.

Yep, I'm totally for doing that. We can focus on one region/ conflict at a time and will get the first issue out much earlier as if we would work on several topics at the same time.

I think we already had enough brainstorming to move on and start writing.

So, how are we going to do this? Google docs?

Can we ask the Happy Dumpshock people for a locked sub-forum?

No need for Google Docs if we have sub-forum here (and we should try to stay at dumpshock, as it's much easier compared with yet another new forum) - we can open up different threads for different topics and work on them there. It's important that we make changes, comments and additions visible, i.e. by each of us using a different color for this.

We need a manager to define deadlines and divide the work.

Any takers of the most thankless job? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

[sabs]

I was going to volunteer Hermit (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
*cough*
Who knwos the DumpShock admins and can ask for a sub forum?

[Grinder]

Who knwos the DumpShock admins and can ask for a sub forum?

Did so just a minute before.

[hermit]

Okay, here's something else worth reading:

you need a style guide. It's really important. When the entire project comes together, you want to be using the same sorts of spelling and the same general format. It's not just as simple as "do what Shadowrun does" because the style guides have morphed over the years. Classically, Shadowrun has used the plural "dwarfs" but in SR4 they have started also using the plural "dwarves" in some places. Switching back and forth between the two spellings in a single book is bad.

Since this is a netbook, I would suggest using a format very similar to what you see in Ends of the Matrix, with the additional caveat of having the authorial voice be a jackpoint posting with comments and a defined Game Information section where you put the stat lines. That means that you'll want a section to look something like this:


This Is The Chapter Title
"This is where we put a pithy comment that will be the tag line for the entire chapter."

We are going to have an introduction. Introductions are important because people want to know what they are getting in to. They are vitally important for a net-book, because the reader won't be familiar with the format and will want to know if this book is "worth reading". Since it is unofficial, the book has to sell itself with its ideas and presentation, and can't get people to pay money for it merely on the basis of power creep.

This Is The Title Of The Section
"Here is where we put an eye-catching and pithy comment related to the topic."
Posted By: The Name of a Character In-World

This is where the body of the text goes. We speak directly to the reader in this section, but we assume that the reader is someone who exists within the Shadowrun world, just as the author of this section is also someone who is in-world. While the actual author and reader are both people living 65 years before the current events of Shadowrun, this section is written as if both author and reader were living in the 2070s. That means that the context of the written text has to be one that excuses giving the reader the kind of information they need. It could be a primer for mercenaries from a different continent, or a corporate historical analysis segment, or some other thing where it is plausible that the fictional author would feel the need to tell the fictional reader the things that the actual author needs to know about the subject.

This section is going to be in multiple paragraphs. Because the intended viewership is on a computer screen rather than in a book, it is customary to mark paragraph breaks with a double break - that is an empty line between paragraphs, and no indentation at the beginning. This is because your reader is going to be adjusting their text size and font for better personal legibility, and you have no way of guarantying that other standards of paragraph notation (such as initial tabs) are going to be comprehensible to your reader.

* After dropping a particularly juicy hint, you can underline it by having a JackPointer comment on it. Remember to have them stay in character and consistent through the work.
* Name of the specific JackPointer making the comment

* You can have more than one JackPointer weigh in on some issue, but remember that too many comments in a chain breaks the flow of the "main" document, so if you want to have a real JackPointer conversation, stick it at the end of the section.
* Name of another JackPointer


Once you've used a JackPointer comment, your next paragraph of the main text is going to go on as if the JackPointer never said anything. Remember that within the fictional world, the entire document was written and posted, and the JackPointers added their comments afterwards. So this paragraph should make narrative sense both with the JackPointer comments (as the actual reader will actually see them) and without the comments (as the piece was supposedly written). If you can't make the piece work both ways, the JackPoint comment has to get binned, no matter how clever or spooky it is.

Subsections Also Get Titles
"Subsections should also get pithy lead-in tag lines."

A subsection is virtually by definition written and posted by the same hand that made the main section it is part of. This means that it doesn't need a "posted by" tagline on it. Subsections can be about anything, and you can even have a JackPoint comment in there somewhere that there were other irrelevant subsections that have been cut out by the SysOp in order to get to the "good stuff". In this manner you can make it totally plausible for there to be a great big cognitive gap between the main section or the previous subsection and this one. But while acceptable, it is lazy. If at all possible, you should get the previous piece to fit with this piece like a link in a chain.

A subsection doesn't have to have more than one paragraph, you could have a subsection that was just a single standalone thought or a description of some minor element that you wanted to include but didn't have room for in the conceptual space of one of the other sections. But if you do produce multiple paragraphs, use the same formatting as you would for a main section. Remember: only the heading of a subsection is reduced, otherwise treat is as a normal section.

Also, stay in-character! A subsection isn't a place to put game information unless it is a subsection in the Game Information chapter (p. XX). For now, we are going to use Page XX placeholders as a joke, but if this gets compiled into a pdf rather than staying as a forum post, the typesetter will actually fix those XX references to genuine numbers or even links.

* Once the section is completely finished, you can go hogwild with JackPointer conversations, because they aren't interrupting anything. Just like they did in Aztlan and Cybertechnology with the big flame wars at the end.
* JackPointer Name

* It's probably tempting to use shout-outs to various friends or in-jokes to your gaming group in the JackPoint comments. Don't do it. It's hard enough getting characters to have enough voice time that we can know them or care what they say, and joke-named one-off posters make that even more difficult.
* JackPointer Name

* Remember, this book is about Shadowrun, not Barsaive. Earthdawn references are frankly kind of annoying and you should keep them to a minimum. Frosty and Man of Many Names are annoying characters and people hate them. The even more know-it-all characters like Laughing Man and Wordsmyth were even more annoying, which is a big reason for them being dropped from the posting roster for SR4. Do not bring them back.
* JackPoint Name

* I'm totally serious. Don't turn your draft into some crappy "A Beutiful Mind" knockoff where you make connections between a bunch of crazy crap in the histories of Shadowrun and Earthdawn. You're here to tell a story in the fictional Shadowrun setting, not to show how many Earthdawn supplements you personally have read.
* JackPoint Name

* Earthdawn magic really isn't that good anyway. Shadowrun magicians are much more powerful than Earthdawn magicians. Not only do they cast many times faster and have spell effects go much longer distances, but basic starting Shadowrun magical effects have a tendency to be 7th circle in Earthdawn. The actual stats on Great Dragons really aren't that impressive either. Things having magical effects from Earthdawn would generally speaking not even matter a tiny little bit to a 6th world military. There are some exceptions, but those exceptions are rare.
* JackPoint Character

A good guide on how to not fall into all of the pitfalls many fan projects and War! fell into, I think. Some stuff we may not adhere that closely to (some ED references are necessary in the story we decided on) but we should keep them to hints and not be too frank about them.

That said, where do we want this fictional alt.War be posted? I'm sort of against JackPoint because it'S CGL's mouthpiece. Maybe the old Shadowland? It still canonically exists; JackPoint is more like where FastJack and his buddies set their own little corner of the Matrix up. Other ideas?

If we do not go for JackPoint but someplace else, we need our own roster of Shadowtalkers. There used to be a list of JackPointers with base descriptions somewhere. I'll upload and link it. This is kinda what we need. Also, we should try and keep their voices both distinct and consistent. We don't want to end up where War! ended up after all.

I'd be for a mix of old and new faces, as with JackPoint. We can re-use some fo the dropped Shadowtalkers from 3E, maybe have our own resident immortals (like JP has Frosty) or people with more than average mythos knowledge, but Frank is in so far right as we should not overdo it. We can also use some personal NPCs and PCs for posters, but then they should be regulars, and not one-post shout out guys. Frank's right, that WAS annoying. Also, the posters should have an interest in-world to read this. A Berlin-based Vory leg breaker would hardly read and comment a lot on an obscure American shadow board (Assuming we want alt.Shadowrun posted in some American board, that is) and show great interest in the Amazon war. We also need one-off local popsters who only really comment on specific locales. It'll probably be quite a list. But we should use them wisely.

Now that.. is an awesome double-cross of epic proportions.

And it doesn't have to be the team selling out their johnson.
It could be an AZT spy in Amazonia, or in Caracas.
It could be a pro AZT data analysis guy whose tracking certain shadow information. He gets wind of the run, and they let the run happen.

The Amazonians think the Shadow team double crossed them. AZT cackles with glee.

Or maybe AZT has some sort of spy, double agent or pressure on one of the team members in that team? That would cause even MORE paranoia, if one PC would volunteer their character for that!

No need for Google Docs if we have sub-forum here (and we should try to stay at dumpshock, as it's much easier compared with yet another new forum) - we can open up different threads for different topics and work on them there. It's important that we make changes, comments and additions visible, i.e. by each of us using a different color for this.

Agreed. We should do it like that. I have my signature color. It's horrible, so nobody wants to use it anyway. .

I was going to volunteer Hermit (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
*cough*
Who knwos the DumpShock admins and can ask for a sub forum?

Allright. If this grows to more than us few, I'll maybe need a hand though.

[Grinder]

Dude, this is my mod color. You have to chose another one. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Doc Chase]

They may not want the IE's and the dragons coming into the thread, but if we're going to use the Locus as a possibility - who else would know about it?

Well, I can see a way around it, and still have Frosty do her 'fuck, packing bags' line to underscore what might be going on. I think less will be more when it comes down to that.

[hermit]

WAAH no, not my bf28ee!

Okay, I'll change. Is this better?

SIGH.

They may not want the IE's and the dragons coming into the thread, but if we're going to use the Locus as a possibility - who else would know about it?

Maybe not an IE or GD but someone who works for a GD/IE/The Seelie Court/the AF?

Well, I can see a way around it, and still have Frosty do her 'fuck, packing bags' line to underscore what might be going on. I think less will be more when it comes down to that.

Think so too. Apart from not annoying the crossover haters too much, it also keeps the mystery.

[Grinder]

I noticed that it's not exactly the same color, but very close. You should go with a gold-ish tone, as you're the boss. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

[Nath]

They may not want the IE's and the dragons coming into the thread, but if we're going to use the Locus as a possibility - who else would know about it?

Well, I can see a way around it, and still have Frosty do her 'fuck, packing bags' line to underscore what might be going on. I think less will be more when it comes down to that.

That's what Game Information are for. You either keep the reference anecdotal and non-central to the plot, or you need to provide enough elements for the people that do not want to read the entire Shadowrun and Earthdawn collections. And Jackpointers are not the right way to do that. Best done clearly, out of context. Obviously, it's more complicated when you have not decided, or don't want to decide exactly what is going on.

[hermit]

It's golden now

So. Any comments on the style guide? Which I agree is a good idea.

That's what Game Information are for. You either keep the reference anecdotal and non-central to the plot, or you need to provide enough elements for the people that do not want to read the entire Shadowrun and Earthdawn collections. And Jackpointers are not the right way to do that. Best done clearly, out of context. Obviously, it's more complicated when you have not decided, or don't want to decide exactly what is going on.

We should provide GMs with info on the Locus, but only in Game Info. Explain in brief whgat a Locus is and why Amazonia may want it. We shouldn't expect players to get every hint droppef for fans of the setting corssover, so we need to be frank in the game info.

[sabs]

Shadowrun Earthdawn cross-over haters suck (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

And he's actually kinda wrong about Magic in ED vs Shadowrun .. but that's okay


I agree though that Harlequin is a pain (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

There's no need to actually detail what happened to screw Amz over so badly.. the rumor and the possibilities are better. Let the individual gms decide (or not) as the case may be.

If you need help with organizing, I can try to help.

I'm more of an ideas guy.

[sabs]

Well Amazonia already has the Locus, but we explain why they want to keep it.
ANd why AZT wants it bad.

[hermit]

Well, I'll post the organisational chart tomorrow. Heading to bed now. Help certainly is appreciatred.

[Yerameyahu]

Just a comment from the peanut gallery: what I'm looking for in a War! book isn't the fluffy 'Matrix commenter' stuff. Hard info about militaries and their operations, plz. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) I realize there's such a thing as icing on the cake, but I think you bake the cake first.

[Megu]

I've been wanting for a long time to do something with the hilltribe/forest spirit vs Vietnamese Army conflict in Vietnam. SEAsianstudies/linguistics student working on Hmong culture and language, so it's pretty close to home. I'm on break now, so I can actually contribute. I'll get some writing done on this over the next two weeks or so, but as for a brief overview?

Basically, the feel of the fighting out in the Annam Cordillera I'm looking for is Princess Mononoke meets Platoon, while in Saigon itself it's more The Quiet American. The forest spirits basically want resource exploiters out, and are willing to use the hilltribes for that end. The hilltribes, for their part, want to grow in political relevance compared to the lowland peoples, and are happy to use the spirits' magical punch to do that. Their strategy is to try and cut Vietnam in two along the Truong Son mountains in central Vietnam, between Hue and Da Nang, hoping the pro-democratic and pro-corporate rebel groups in southern Vietnam and Saigon especially will use that opportunity to declare their independence, and they'll have neutralized the biggest nearby military threat to the nascent spirit nation in Laos by cutting it in half. Obviously, the Vietnamese and their Russian and Aztlaner backers don't want this to happen. So far it's been a stalemate; the hit and run attacks a spirit army is good at is not a good way to break major fortifications around Hue and Da Nang, but at the same time, the hilltribes have hardly any infrastructure to target and armies sent up into the mountains tend to get chewed up for little gain. Aztlan has its own war on now, though, so the Dega Alliance of spirits and hilltribes sees a chance and is likely to get bold.

Other factions have their own agendas on this. A lot of the independence movement in the south is driven by the Chinese community in Saigon and the Cholon Triad there. Cholon, a poorer, more Chinese area of western Saigon, is a hotbed of insurgency, and the Triads are everywhere the way the secret police are everywhere else. This is a bit ironic given that the relationship between China and Hmong and other hill people has generally not been good. Similarly, part of the reason the hill tribes have what gear they do is from Hmong and other ethnic syndicates in the UCAS Midwest and the CFS, who sell opiates grown in Dega Alliance territory and send back weapons.

The corps are divided on the whole situation. On the one hand, the Khouang Combine, Vietnam's state-corp, has pretty much locked out everybody but Aztechnology from Vietnam's economy. And that means the other corps would be happy to see the rebels in the south have their chance to declare independence and open up south Vietnam's economy to them. At the same time, though, Ares and Monobe in particular have been involved in resource struggles in Laos for a long time, and the Dega Alliance, if successful, might lock them out of those resources. So Ares is of two minds, the Azzies are solidly behind the Vietnamese regime, and others who hate the Azzies and have no interest in Laos' resources, like, say, Horizon, might be very much behind the hilltribes. Amazonia might be sympathetic as well to an Awakened state threatening Azzie interests.

I haven't quite figured out where some other factions fit in: the Naga in Cambodia, the Canton Confederation, Kalokdam, et al. Still thinking about it.

Also thinking about plot hooks. I feel like a second Battle of Hue reminiscent of the Tet Offensive one could be cool. Want at least one war-related intrigue adventure in Saigon, that Quiet American feel I was talking about. And definitely at least one needs to focus on the Awakened element.

Does this look like a potentially interesting chapter thus far? What in particular should I elaborate on?

[Stahlseele]

Sounds good so far O.o
The Naga could probably best be introduced via the old persecution and reluctant acceptance path.
Or maybe simply becoming strong enough and fighting back and winning enough to stay alive . . . .
Also, they could provide plot/adventure hooks simply because of who/what they are.

[sabs]

That looks like it would go well in the Land War in Asia Issue

I'm seeing a pattern of "Highly Technologically Advanced Troops" vs "Awakened Bad Asses."

[Stahlseele]

Yeah, who would want to fight an army of intelligent awakened snakes in a jungle environment?
Anybody seen Anaconda for example?