alt.WAR, Fixing War's problems by writing a new book Options

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

Yeah, who would want to fight an army of intelligent awakened snakes in a jungle environment?
Anybody seen Anaconda for example?

Yeah, worse than fight a huge semi-intelligent snake in its own territory is to fight a intelligent spellslinger snake.

Anyway, I'll try to write something about the motivations and battlefields of the Am-Azt war this weekend and post it here.

[Megu]

That looks like it would go well in the Land War in Asia Issue

I'm seeing a pattern of "Highly Technologically Advanced Troops" vs "Awakened Bad Asses."

Yeah, Aztlan vs Amazonia kind of steals my thunder in that regard. So I may put more emphasis on the mobile, decentralized, hit and run nature of the Dega Alliance forces. They're not going to just stand around and fight pitched battles the way the Amazonian Awakened forces do; the population figures in Shadows of Asia were pretty comparable to today, and today's Vietnamese Army has almost a half million active duty soldiers, and a program of conscription could drastically increase that. In Vietnam and Laos there's maybe 2 million hill tribe people total. The Vietnamese regime can absolutely afford a war of attrition, so I imagine the hill tribes are going to do as much of their fighting as they can with summoned spirits, from ambush, and in otherwise indirect manners.

[fistandantilus4....]

I noticed that it's not exactly the same color, but very close. You should go with a gold-ish tone, as you're the boss. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

Hey thanks. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

As Grinder mentioned, there's a discussion started about a sub-forum for your project. I'd assume you're looking to do something like a seperate thread for each chapter, perhaps sub-chapter? Could you give us a bit better of an idea of what you're looking for?

[sabs]

Basically that.. a thread for each chapter, and sub-chapter

Might be nice if we could edit each other's posts.. and maybe only people working on it, were actually able to post.
but both of those things aren't all that important.

[fistandantilus4....]

Basically that.. a thread for each chapter, and sub-chapter

Might be nice if we could edit each other's posts.. and maybe only people working on it, were actually able to post.
but both of those things aren't all that important.

Thanks. We'll look over and review what we can do for you.

[Abschalten]

Do we possibly want to move the timeline of the war up some? I find it hard that Caracas saw military action from Aztlan forces in late 2071, and the war didn't really get going until 2073. Sourcebooks leading up to the November 20th, 2071 events mentioned that Caracas was a powderkeg that could throw the entire region into war. And yet the story as written by War seems to indicate that it was just... "stuff." Like, it didn't do anything. Caracas was just some tiny footnote of news buried somewhere at the bottom of page 20 and promptly forgotten about.

[Megu]

Do we possibly want to move the timeline of the war up some? I find it hard that Caracas saw military action from Aztlan forces in late 2071, and the war didn't really get going until 2073. Sourcebooks leading up to the November 20th, 2071 events mentioned that Caracas was a powderkeg that could throw the entire region into war. And yet the story as written by War seems to indicate that it was just... "stuff." Like, it didn't do anything. Caracas was just some tiny footnote of news buried somewhere at the bottom of page 20 and promptly forgotten about.

Seems reasonable. It might be easier to write the war as kicked off by the bombings in Ghost Cartels that way, without carnivorous trees and all that.

[Megu]

Does anyone remember what the hints were regarding Cambodia's state in Running Wild's Naga fluff section and Vice's Four Winds Triad section? I left my books in Canada when I came back to the old country for winter break...

[lokii]

A good guide on how to not fall into all of the pitfalls many fan projects and War! fell into, I think. Some stuff we may not adhere that closely to (some ED references are necessary in the story we decided on) but we should keep them to hints and not be too frank about them.

The locus actually is really more of a Shadowrun thing, I don't think that it appears in Earthdawn at all. And while there is the connection to the Therans it's basically just a powerful ancient artifact that the Amazonians use for their ritual magic. Since the whole SR/ED crossover is controversial all other ED references that you might want to include and that actually impact the alt.War campaign could be banned in a separate Game Info subsection as optional plot elements for those who like this stuff. A crossover ghetto should be a reasonable compromise. Still I think we all agree this particular setting doesn't really need a lot of ED references that's one for alt.Artifacts (depending on how book number four turns out).

I would also suggest to compile a document of background information for the authors, maybe one thread in the subforum. Some key quotes (as I said the Aztlan sourcebook on the Southern Border, that's half a page, is maybe a good starting point for everyone), extracts from the Ancient Files like the description of the locus and from the Sixth World Wiki. Also maybe a link collection for reference material on the region and on military stuff. It's nice to have your references available for other people. When some inevitable fan hate will hit alt.War they can be used as a starting point for alt.alt.War. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Regarding other hotspots it's good to think about locations but themes and play styles may be more important. Here I would suggest compiling a list of locations and of themes/variations on war scenarios and then decide on the best matches between the two lists. Though of course if you have a good location+theme pitch by all means out with it.

[Kot]

You can count on my Polish warzones section. I'm currently working on it, but it seems the tone would be prevalent in the book - nature&magic vs. corporations&tech. Fits Shadowrun nicely, and was around for a long time before.
As for solid info:

-Pomerians are a better equipped and organized force, that it would seem. The country was at war recently, and there was enough weapons on the black market, plus their ties with the Kaper smuggling ring provided them with even better stuff. Off course, there will be some rumors on different corporations providing weapons to the separatists, but in the end those will be rumors only. The Pomerians use their vast Awakened resources to fuel their 'independence war', and that causes tensions between their command supported by the common soldier, and the eco and awakened radicals. That also causes some infighting amongst the Kaper ring, where three different factions want to take over the leadership and increase their profits. Plus, S-K and it's allies push hard to make Poland turn their anti-guerrilla campaign into a full-fledged war to protect it's resources - which make the most of the targets of Pomerian terrorist attacks - and to secure the rich in awakened resources region. Poland has to comply with that, despite of social tensions and support for the Pomerian cause. That, along with the feeling most non-corporate Polish people have, that the corporations stripped them of everything they had, including their freedom, causes the Pomerian ranks swell, and their resources and ties to Polish anti-corporation movements get stronger... Which causes the corporations to fuel the tensions with shadowruns and the usual blame tactics. One of the ideas of the setting is that everything will go to hell soon, and the war will break the Polish spirit, and shackle them as slaves to the corporations. We also have some corps infighting, as Horizon tries to pose as the 'good guy, that cares for the Awakened and Metas', to the S-K's 'bad guy with a dragon on top' in the conflict, which doesn't help the situation, but does provide numerous - and dangerous - opportunities for shadowrunners. TriCity officially declared their neutrality in this conflict, which caused even more shake-ups in both of it's leadership, and citizens. It doesn't keep the Zone from making nuyen from it, as they are the biggest economical power in northern Poland, even if TriCity isn't a part of it. Its markets are flooded with Pomerian goods - reagents, some of which are unique to the Pomerian forests, loot, and several brand-new and hip BADs, on which the Starowiercy - 'Old Religion', an aggressive, pro-ecologic pagan group having lots of interest and influence in the Pomerian cause - have a monopoly(which both the corporations, and criminal organizations want to break).

-The Toxic Warlords of Mazury are more than just a nuisance. The region was once one of the most beautifull and popular vacation spots. Now it's a toxic wasteland, where criminals, deserters, madmen and outcasts band together, creating clans, ruled by ruthless warlords with their iron fists - literally, as iron cyberhands made are their regalia. Currently there's six of them, and it seems that their quarrels were set aside. All six clans banded together and began raiding all neighboring territories. And both defense against them, and counter-strikes proved difficult, as the support given by an unknown group of toxic shamans, that surfaced with the beginning of raids, causes both the Polish and Russian military forces to keep their distance. It seems all they can usually do is direct artillery fire - which causes even more death and destruction - and pester the raiders with their drones. All three attacks with mechanized forces ended badly, and both the politicians, and military higher-ups are losing patience. On the other hand, Mazury is one of the worst nightmares of a common Polish soldier, with mutated paracritters, traps, snipers, and ghost towns inhabited by mutants, madmen and crazed spirits. And the badly equipped and poorly trained forces with the occasional Independence War veteran NCO isn't enough to deal with the threat. Off course there were Mercenaries hired, but two of the groups were lost - one in a clan ambush, one set foot in one of the ghost-towns, never to be seen again. The remaining mercenary units decided to either break the contract, or wait it out in defensive positions, usually in one of the more wealthy, or quiet towns. As yet the price offered by Poland isn't enough to hire any serious mercenary unit, but it seems that migh change soon. And if Poland won't take care of the problem, TriCity will have to step in, as their south-eastern assets are in real danger of being overrun by clan raiders. Their only defenses at the moment are the Woje mercenary unit, which sustained heavy losses while defending the border from the initial raids, and cannot perform anything but the basic defense. The biggest problem constant infighting among the Zone council, which cannot decide to hire additional forces, or reinforce the current one. Fortunately for the Woje, they recently managed to contact with the Kaper mercenary ring, and strike a deal. The Kapers will provide them with supplies and fresh recruits from TriCity in return for organizing a few smuggling routes, with the help of their scouts and guides who know both the terrain, and the raiders usual hideouts in Mazury.

[Grinder]

The locus actually is really more of a Shadowrun thing, I don't think that it appears in Earthdawn at all.

Well, not quite. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

[lokii]

Go on.

[Blade]

There's something about shadowtalk (Jackpoint comments) that Frank didn't say: it's also useful to introduce elements that the GM is free to include or not.

Let's say you want to use some ED reference that some people love and other hate, for example you'd think it'd be a good idea to have obsidimen somewhere. To please everyone, you can introduce it as a rumor commented by a Jackpointer:

[...]. There are also a lot of big rocks.

I've got a chummer who had to spend the night there. He swears that when he woke up, the rocks weren't in the same position.
>>> Shadowtalker 1

Come on, that guy says the same thing about the whiskey bottles in his apartment.
>>> Shadowtalker 2

[raben-aas]

Maybe, instead of doing alt.War, you should do add.War? If you cover battlefields/warzones in Vietnam, Siberia, Australia, Greece, ANYwhere but those hotspots that were covered by War!, you could make The War Netbook much more useable.

What I mean by this: No one knows where the canonical timeline is going from here. Change the Az/Am War, and you split off from the "main" timeline of SR. You may be totally OK with that, but imagine what would happen if somehow future SR products would be great again? ALL future SR products by this and any possible future publishers will build on the establishes canonical timeline, thus rendering any "fanwork" obsolete (or noncanonical).

Of course, fanwork cannot be canonical, but it can be canon-compliable (is that even a word?), thus offering the POSSIBILITY to LATER become fully canonical (it has happened before, i.e. with most of the Dark Eye setting).

So, my suggestion in short:
– if you hate WAR!, let let WAR! be WAR!
– if you want to write a War! Netbook, write about all the things WAR! did not cover
– if possible, do not contradict WAR!
– search for 1 to 3 key warzones outside of Mid/SouthAm and cover them in detail
– add whatever you like about Modern Warfare (ha!) in SR2072/73
– add new equipment, house rules, whatever
– the operative word is ADD, not CHANGE

This way, the two books could both be used, thus broadening the player base for your book immensely. If you opt for changing the metaplot instead, you are branching off from "mainstream SR", and while that is TOTALLY OK, it will make your work much more complicated snd ultimately less rewarding (do not think about now or next year, think about 3+/5+ years in the future)

[lokii]

Well, that approach makes it less likely that something will be contradicting the main plot, but of course you never know were CGL will go next. That might just as well be one of the hotspots. Incorporating some advise of how to use alt.War to improve War! and how to get from alt.War to War! may be a good idea though. Remember it's pick and choose anyway and a huge part of the undertaking - as I understand it - is to provide a better organised overview of all the aspects of a military themed campaign.

[raben-aas]

A possibility of future contradiction is by definition less likely than actually and directly contradicting NOW, isn't it?

Besides: If you take a look at the Almanac, you get a pretty good impression which corners of the world are currently "out-of-focus". Plus, if the netbook gets really popular, the snake will bite its own tail, as future authors will feel reluctant to write stuff on a topic that an unknown, but possibly high number of fans have different infos on (as long as there are blind spots or spots not covered for 10 oog-years are available, why would s.o. pick a fight by "retconning" a background that may not be official, but is established in the community (community being the magic power word of Web2.0 etc.))

The way I see it, there is less to gain by a direct head-on canon clash than by a "canon-compliable web enhancement to 6WA and WAR".

[sabs]

But the stuff covered in War is, actually bad.. and makes very little sense.
The ATZ-AMZ war as described is being fought over a non-sensical reason, in what can only be described as the stupidest place to have a war in south america. Only way it could be worse is if they were fighting over Chile.

[lokii]

A possibility of future contradiction is by definition less likely than actually and directly contradicting NOW, isn't it?

True, but of what I understand the plot of War! is pretty incoherent. So you might be able to substitute the built-up or a few engagements and still end up with whatever the canon outcome may be. The same goes for the other hotspots admittedly. But that just means that going for good modularity is another way to make alt.War more compatible to War! and future releases.

why would s.o. pick a fight by "retconning" a background that may not be official, but is established in the community

Because the community keeps talking smack about your products? I vaguely remember something about nuking the setting. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

The way I see it, there is less to gain by a direct head-on canon clash than by a "canon-compliable web enhancement to 6WA and WAR".

Don't get me wrong I think you have a valid point, but don't forget Rage™ is fueling this project. And one of the things people seem to be most angry about is just how unusable the Azt/Am setting is.

[Kot]

He has a point, you know. We could still do that by adding content to what has already been done (along with all those alternate explanations of why is the war even going on), and just supplement the book with info that it did not cover (like tactical data, maps, and the analysis of modern warfare in SR).
If the plot is incoherent, make it so. We can always work with what we had before, to fix War!.

Also, writing alternate versions of those things we find 'not good' would be a lot better than just rewriting the whole thing. Like giving people an alternate version of the Auschwitz part.

And this way we don't challenge CGL's authority. And don't cause more turmoil in the fanbase. That's a constructive way of doing it. I'm all for it.

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

Don't get me wrong I think you have a valid point, but don't forget Rage™ is fueling this project. And one of the things people seem to be most angry about is just how unusable the Azt/Am setting is.

Actually, I don't think the Azt/Am setting is unusable as it is. I think it could be worked out (mainly describing what the hell is going on besides Bogotá and A BLOODY MAP).
But since people in this project prefers to rewrite everything, I'll go with the boat.

[sabs]

Well Bogota being the center of the Amz/ATZ war just doesn't make any sense.

It's like having a War Between Germany and France, and having all the fighting in Switzerland.
Except worse, because the Andes make the Alps looks like foot hills.

And we're not rewriting everything. I mean, the war is still going to happen.
We're not changing the What or the Who
Just the Why and the Where.
And maybe tweaking the "When" just a hair.

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

The problem, it seems to me is this: Bogota was a free-city with a buffer zone between Amazonia and Aztlan? Or Bogota belonged to Aztlan and was close to the border of Amazonia and Aztlan? And if Bogotá indeed belonged to Aztlan, was the region a demilitarized zone?

That is the problem I have with the book, Bogotá looks like the red-headed step child that neither Amazon nor Aztlan wanted, but now, they are fighting for it for no good reason except for the lulz.

[raben-aas]

I'm pretty sure that in RL there have been wars for incoherent or plain stupid reasons. If you don't like the Az/Am-plotline, I merely suggest to IGNORE it, and concentrate on one or some of the other, more interesting venues/warzones other people suggested here (like Vietnam, or SE Asia in general).

Like, in the second Germany sourcebook, way back, there are smurfs (not actually, they are dwarfes with blue skin who live in Saxony). An author wrote about them. A German developer approved them. The American line developer – NOT JH! – even made them CANONICAL. And yes, I frigging hate the bastards.

However, instead of writing about the new and better and more serious and tied-into-metaplot metatype of the vaguely indigo-skinned dwarves, I plainly IGNORE them, much like about 99.999% of all German gamemasters and players, MAYBE including the author who wrote about them (seriously, we all had terrible ideas at one point or the other).

You want to make a "better" warbook? Go ahead. Great idea. Moar power to the people. I just don't think that all your creativity should go into "what would a better storyline be", because, ultimately, you'll start to fight about whose "vision" is the better one. Now, ignore the Az/Am plotline even as it unfolds in future products, pick YOUR personal warzone and make it the best-written hotspot the SR world has ever seen, and the result will be not "one more or less better Am/Az plotline depending on your personal viewpoint and preferences", but "one Am/Az plotline that some/many people find crappy PLUS 10+ fan-made plotlines on hotspots all over the wotld collected in the most awesome SR netbook of all time".

Even if 50% of those 10+ new plotlines/warzones suck (because, you know, SOMEone will write something about an SR/ED-tie-in or the invasion of the Reichsflugscheiben or whatever), you STILL have 5 new playing grounds for you campaign to rock in!

WHY in the world should you settle for ONE?

[Grinder]

Atzlan vs. Amazonia will be the first war/ hotspot covered by this project. If all goes out as planned, we'll release additional netbooks as well, each one focused on another conflict - so no need to continue your attempt to talk us out of re-writing the setting of War! (or at least trying to turn it into a setting that makes actual sense).

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

raben, my problem with the plotline is that it is not explained at all. At some point, one book says Bogotá belonged to Aztlan, in this one, it seems bogotá was the capital of a buffer zone State between Aztlan and Amazonia that was bombarded by Aztlan/Aztechnology during the Ghost Cartel incident and the Congress was destroyed with the congressmen inside during a session. WTH?!?!

Another issue with War! is that it spends almost half the book talking only about Bogotá instead of talking about the whole Theater of War. The fact that the book doesn't have a map just adds hurt to injury.

And finally, it does not talk about how the armies of the Sixth World are arranged. Magicians and Adepts receive special training/salaray? How heavy is drone use? Using spirits? How is the new Combined Arms approach considering we now have the Astral Plane? And cyber and bio? The army gives to their soldiers or the soldiers may buy it in a kind of lease program? And after they discharge, what happens to the more dangerous cyber/bio?
It is a book about War! So let's talk about War! Seriously, if the book had at least 20 pages talking about this I would give it a 10 out of 10.