alt.WAR, Fixing War's problems by writing a new book |
alt.WAR, Fixing War's problems by writing a new book |
Dec 22 2010, 03:11 PM
Post
#201
|
|
Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,179 Joined: 10-June 10 From: St. Louis, UCAS/CAS Border Member No.: 18,688 |
Not quite understanding the sudden resistance to the project.
I mean, it's not like we're complaining about the art. A chief problem with War! is that it isn't about war. It's about Bogota. Rename the book Target: Bogota and it would be accurate. Read the book. There's nothing about the war in it beyond some nebulous alliterations to actions somewhere in South America, nebulous accusations as to the start, and a pay table for grunts. So yes, we're netbooking it to make it about the actual war, and war in all its glory. Rumble in the Jungle(SouthAm), Street Fight(Urban Warfare in Europe), War Games(Desert Wars, Survivor), Comrades in Arms(the rebellion in Yakut), A Land War in Asia(you get the picture) - the list can go on. With every theater we can bring more flavor to the setting as a whole, paint a brighter picture of areas that are currently grayscale, and show how the shadows of war can mean big business for people that don't want to fight in it. |
|
|
Dec 22 2010, 03:24 PM
Post
#202
|
|
Prime Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,996 Joined: 1-June 10 Member No.: 18,649 |
Yeah, I don't get it either.
It's not even like our alternate War! is actually going to "break from canon" in a huge way. I mean, okay we're making Bogota look less stupid, and focusing on Caracas and Maracaibos (both of which aren't even covered). But the basics, AZT/AMZ go to war, roar! Is still there. |
|
|
Dec 22 2010, 03:53 PM
Post
#203
|
|
Shooting Target Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 1,989 Joined: 28-July 09 From: Somewhere along the brazilian coast Member No.: 17,437 |
So, besides describing/fixing some Theaters of War, do you guys think in doing EXACTLY what War! didn't? Describe how Modern Warfare is implemented in the Sixth World?
I'm not in the military, but I know a lot of guys here are/were in the military and could give as feedback about this. What you guys think? |
|
|
Dec 22 2010, 04:04 PM
Post
#204
|
|
Prime Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,996 Joined: 1-June 10 Member No.: 18,649 |
That is definitely one of the things I want to work on.
Describe 3 kinds of military: Highly Modernized, technology driven Militaries (UCAS, CAS, Ares, S&K) Modernized, Mixed Militaries (AZT) Awakened, Magical militaries (AMZ, and many others) What does combat look like when your primary air superiority units are Wyverns and Drakes. I have this idea for the Ares/S&K/UCAS/CAS: individual grunts are highly specialized and trained, and the more traditional "body count" troops are all drones. Otomos, Rotor drones, etc. How do Hackers work in the Combat Zone. The HQ Hacker, the Operational Theatre Hacker, The On the Ground Communications specialist. A Corporal with advanced comm gear, including 2 military grade commlinks. TacNets and securing/protecting them Agent assistants for every Trooper. The Ability not only to read TacNets, but for Squad leaders and intel people to update them with information real time. Yes, the TacNet shows 5 people. But your Sniper Overwatch guy is 'manually' updating information, marking which ones are higher threat, etc. Tactical Hacker vs AI vs TacSoft |
|
|
Dec 22 2010, 04:11 PM
Post
#205
|
|
Shooting Target Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 1,989 Joined: 28-July 09 From: Somewhere along the brazilian coast Member No.: 17,437 |
Yeah, ECM and ECCM would be huge in modern battlefields. The ability to use the enemies' drone against itself or at least disable them is huge.
|
|
|
Dec 22 2010, 04:17 PM
Post
#206
|
|
Prime Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,996 Joined: 1-June 10 Member No.: 18,649 |
But when you're fighting an army that's probably 80% awakened, and 20-30% Mage or Spirit based. Drones are your lifeline. OCR of 5+ REALLY helps cut down on loses. Compared to 1 mage being able to take out an entire squad of grunts in 2-3 rounds.
|
|
|
Dec 22 2010, 04:26 PM
Post
#207
|
|
Target Group: Members Posts: 59 Joined: 20-March 10 From: Bricktown, Poland Member No.: 18,322 |
Sabs, what bout cutting the costs? Why spend that much on a grunt, when you can have a dozen of them instead. That's probably Aztechnology's/Atzlan's way of doing it. Except for special forces, for example...
|
|
|
Dec 22 2010, 04:52 PM
Post
#208
|
|
Prime Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,996 Joined: 1-June 10 Member No.: 18,649 |
Absolutely..
That's why AZT is a different military type than say UCAS. But AZT's been involved in a land war with the Yucatan for a while now. It's not clear how much population drain they're feeling from that war, and now starting another one. So AZT tactics may also be evolving. |
|
|
Dec 22 2010, 05:12 PM
Post
#209
|
|
Keeper of the Timeline Maps Group: Members Posts: 410 Joined: 21-December 10 Member No.: 19,243 |
But AZT's been involved in a land war with the Yucatan for a while now. It's not clear how much population drain they're feeling from that war, and now starting another one. You know that the war is officially over since 2064?There are a lot of discussion threads about all kinds of aspects of the military on Dumpshock. They might provide some information and solutions. Since not everybody reads the community projects, at some point it can make sense to make a brainstorming thread to open the discussion to a wider audience. Though that usually only leads to usable results if one has a more formalised structure for giving suggestions like a questionnaire or something similar, that helps with collecting the input. And of course it's not necessary if there are already more ideas than can be included. |
|
|
Dec 22 2010, 05:52 PM
Post
#210
|
|
Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,179 Joined: 10-June 10 From: St. Louis, UCAS/CAS Border Member No.: 18,688 |
I wouldn't mind doing an In The Army Now supplement that gives people an idea of how a combined-arms company is supposed to work.
As with everything, it just requires some research to make sure we're not stepping on a land mine. |
|
|
Dec 22 2010, 06:13 PM
Post
#211
|
|
Prime Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,996 Joined: 1-June 10 Member No.: 18,649 |
I need to relook at the timelines for some stuff. I couldn't remember when the Yucatan war ended.. in SR3 or in SR4.
|
|
|
Dec 22 2010, 06:33 PM
Post
#212
|
|
Shooting Target Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 1,989 Joined: 28-July 09 From: Somewhere along the brazilian coast Member No.: 17,437 |
I wouldn't mind doing an In The Army Now supplement that gives people an idea of how a combined-arms company is supposed to work. As with everything, it just requires some research to make sure we're not stepping on a land mine. I would vote that as priority one. Then we move on to battlefields around the world. |
|
|
Dec 22 2010, 06:37 PM
Post
#213
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 993 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 313 |
I agree with Sabs, at least part of this project should focus on the individual combatants at different tech levels.
Backwoods militia Standard grunts Special Ops, We could even go further and describe how mercenaries function at similar levels. As far as gear goes, I think it will be impossible to avoid some kind of power creep, I'm okay with that though. |
|
|
Dec 22 2010, 06:50 PM
Post
#214
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 151 Joined: 28-August 08 From: Berlin, Germany Member No.: 16,285 |
Quick comments:
– I'm SO not opposing the project (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) – In my observation, the aim goes beyond "fixing" Az/Am, it's about re-doing Az/Am while claiming to fix WAR! – Fixing WAR! in the sense some said they wanted to fix it does not NECESSARILY mean re-doing Az/Am – Yes, "tweaking" Az/Am is ONE way to do it. – I think that tewaking may not be enough /slash/ tweaking in the sense you mean it involves actually leaving the canonical course of things – All I'm saying is: IF you do that, think about what the long-term consequences MAY be. – Also: Think about if redoing not THIS "War!" book, but A "War!" book HAS to involve an in-depth coverage of Az/Am – IF not, THEN drop Az/Am and focus on OTHER conflicts (there are ALWAYS more wars raging in ANY given year across the globe!) That's all. And: Twuz just a suggestion. Do whatever you please, please (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) |
|
|
Dec 22 2010, 06:53 PM
Post
#215
|
|
The King In Yellow Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,922 Joined: 26-February 05 From: JWD Member No.: 7,121 |
Firstly, sorry for being absent this day so far; been doing christmas shopping. Fun.
Now, I'll get back to a number of things. QUOTE (fistandantilus4.0) As Grinder mentioned, there's a discussion started about a sub-forum for your project. I'd assume you're looking to do something like a seperate thread for each chapter, perhaps sub-chapter? Could you give us a bit better of an idea of what you're looking for? Actually, at least that. Maybe, if we work on several issues at a time, it might be a subforum with more sub forums - one per issue - and in those an organsiatioonal thread, a sticky with style guide, relevant shadowposters, and an outline, and chapter threads. If that's too much, we'll go with one thread per chapter and stick to one issue at a time. Thanks for hosting us. QUOTE ("Abschalten") I find it hard that Caracas saw military action from Aztlan forces in late 2071, and the war didn't really get going until 2073. Sourcebooks leading up to the November 20th, 2071 events mentioned that Caracas was a powderkeg that could throw the entire region into war. And yet the story as written by War seems to indicate that it was just... "stuff." Like, it didn't do anything. Caracas was just some tiny footnote of news buried somewhere at the bottom of page 20 and promptly forgotten about. Crap writing. But just because soem old geezer and his asskissers in some obscure forum somewhere on the matrix didn'T think it important doesn't mean it wasn't, does it? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) Possibly, the war was going on undeclared for some time before Aztech decided to move on to the Locus and declare war openly. That, or the stuff in JackPoint is justb crap and wrong all over, which I could live with just as well. QUOTE ("Raben-AAS") Maybe, instead of doing alt.War, you should do add.War? If you cover battlefields/warzones in Vietnam, Siberia, Australia, Greece, ANYwhere but those hotspots that were covered by War!, you could make The War Netbook much more useable. Actually we aim to keep the Az/Am stuff to describing all the things only glossed over or not at all explained in War! - like the "stuff" from page 20, in a chapter/issue that focuses on Caracas and the explosion of this powder keg. Again, I see your point. But we don't want to rewrite much of the stuff from War! (much), not more than absolutely necessary (retcon the stuff on the 'it's all subjective anyways' line that's been firmly established in SR). We mainly want to shift the point of view from Bogotá (where War! does nothing to talk about the war there, either, it sounds like a travel guide for moderately peaqceful Bogotá) to other, more likely and more fighty theaters - the basin and Venzuela. After all, there's supposed to be a WAR there. War! certainly does not give that impression. |
|
|
Dec 22 2010, 07:01 PM
Post
#216
|
|
Prime Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,996 Joined: 1-June 10 Member No.: 18,649 |
I had a question about TacNets.
Do we want to -relook- at how TacNets work? Not so much the add rating to dicepool part. I think that works fine. But more, from a Tactical point of view. How to add someone to a TacNet, who perhaps doesn't have 99 sensors. Overwatch Tacticians doing predictive analysis. In my mind, I envision 2 skills, though perhaps they could be 1. 1 is a language skill or Knowledge skill: Military TacNet Jargon - Military group: Which means you know how to read and more importantly add information to your team tacnet quickly and a skill that teaches you how to muck with other people's tacnets. logic+tacnet skill every hit drops the opposing teams tacnet bonus by 1, or increasing yours back up to the rating of the tacnet. Hackers on either side spend a lot of time trying to get their teams to do certain things to muck with the opposing teams tacnet. I'm still mumbling it all in my head. |
|
|
Dec 22 2010, 07:09 PM
Post
#217
|
|
Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,179 Joined: 10-June 10 From: St. Louis, UCAS/CAS Border Member No.: 18,688 |
– In my observation, the aim goes beyond "fixing" Az/Am, it's about re-doing Az/Am while claiming to fix WAR! – Fixing WAR! in the sense some said they wanted to fix it does not NECESSARILY mean re-doing Az/Am – Yes, "tweaking" Az/Am is ONE way to do it. Here's the problem with the Az/Am conflict: War! doesn't describe it worth shit. By adding to it, we're able to make a theatre of engagement actually engaging since canon has hinted towards this building since the Yucatan, and expand the conflict to actually be one. We have the potential to give the conflict a level of detail that even the Yucatan didn't get in terms of scope and timeline, and expand the conflict so people who want to play the area as mercenaries or as Shadowrunners both have plenty of options. Everybody wins. QUOTE – I think that tweaking may not be enough /slash/ tweaking in the sense you mean it involves actually leaving the canonical course of things – All I'm saying is: IF you do that, think about what the long-term consequences MAY be. Trouble is, there are areas where War! has already left canon, primarily Bogota itself, where it sits on the Az/Am border, and its status as a DMZ/Free City. Centering a war here between magical insurgents and a large combined-arms regimented force is silly for multiple reasons - one, it's high up so there's not as much vegitation as people think; two, it's high up so it's really hard to get armor in and out of there, and three; it doesn't serve a very large strategic purpose when cities such as Maracaibo or Caracas do. Bogota works when you can airlift large amounts of materiel in and thanks to AAA on both sides - nobody can. QUOTE – Also: Think about if redoing not THIS "War!" book, but A "War!" book HAS to involve an in-depth coverage of Az/Am – IF not, THEN drop Az/Am and focus on OTHER conflicts (there are ALWAYS more wars raging in ANY given year across the globe!) Not sure what you mean, here. Of course we have to involve in-depth coverage of Az/Am. CGL in this case did not, and I'll be damned if I'm going to let people spend money on this book and not have the resource they wanted when they purchased it. I personally spent $20 so I could get angry, bitch about it here on DS, find a like-minded audience, and embark on an absinthe-fueled spree of creativity that may well give the people what they want - and by damn if they want to buy us absinthe I do not think we will complain. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) |
|
|
Dec 22 2010, 07:12 PM
Post
#218
|
|
Prime Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,996 Joined: 1-June 10 Member No.: 18,649 |
I see the layout of book 1 something liek this:
1) Introduction 1-2 pages 2) An overview of the conflict 4-5 pages a timeline from the end of Ghost Cartels till sometime around 2073 3) The Front Lines! a) Maracaibo - 4-5 pages maybe more, the skyhook, the oil fields, etc. 4) Military Organizations involved I'd like to see this be 40-50 pages a) AZT - War on 5,000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) a soldier or less (5 to 10 pages) including motivations and major leaders in the area, tactics, etc 5) The Matrix on the Battlefield 5-8 pages 6) Magic on the battlefield 5-8 pages 7) Gear and coolshit the rest (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool.gif) A map, maybe several maps, showing the front lines in several points along the timeline.. |
|
|
Dec 22 2010, 07:13 PM
Post
#219
|
|
Target Group: Members Posts: 59 Joined: 20-March 10 From: Bricktown, Poland Member No.: 18,322 |
I think a specialization for Electronic Warfare would be better than a new skill. For now, i think the only one skill added was Enchanting, but I'm not really sure. And a knowledge skill of Military TacNets, Military Tactics, or Military Operations would suffice for the 'know how to mess with their tacnet' part...
I think TacNets work fine, we should focus more on who should have what level of TN, and how different are military TN's from th usual shadowrunning/security kind. |
|
|
Dec 22 2010, 07:18 PM
Post
#220
|
|
Prime Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,996 Joined: 1-June 10 Member No.: 18,649 |
I think a specialization for Electronic Warfare would be better than a new skill. For now, i think the only one skill added was Enchanting, but I'm not really sure. And a knowledge skill of Military TacNets, Military Tactics, or Military Operations would suffice for the 'know how to mess with their tacnet' part... I think TacNets work fine, we should focus more on who should have what level of TN, and how different are military TN's from th usual shadowrunning/security kind. You know that's actually fine (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Part of the idea, is I was thinking how cool it would be.. if you were a street sam/Soldier of Fortune, and all of a sudden your Overwatch Hacker says: "Dude, I want you to count to ten, do a backflip over that fence, and shoot a short burst at a 30 degrees, 6 minutes, then duck. On my mark.." "Mark" What can I say I like cool style. But EW with a specialty, and a knowledge skillf or military tacnets is good. And yes, how do Military grade tacnets differ. What does a TacNet being run by a Nexus, with 3-4 dedicated military agents, and 2-3 tactical hackers running overwatch and analysis /look/ like. |
|
|
Dec 22 2010, 07:57 PM
Post
#221
|
|
Target Group: Members Posts: 59 Joined: 20-March 10 From: Bricktown, Poland Member No.: 18,322 |
And that's definitely cool. Especially if we don't go the 'higher bonuses from tacnet' road, and just decide that Military TacNets are better because of their software, sensors, and the fact that almost every soldier has the same gear that TN uses.
Hmmm... And what about field TacNet specialists? Like comm specialists in the field, they could fight only when necessary, probably jumping in and out of VR all the time, coordinating the whole squad/section. P.S. I've heard the FORMOZA special unit here in Poland used that kind of communication, with coordinators that watch cam helmet data, give suggestions, sitrep, and stuff. It's still not an official gear, but i know that unit experimented with a lot of things - it's something like the Navy Seals. |
|
|
Dec 22 2010, 08:05 PM
Post
#222
|
|
Prime Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,996 Joined: 1-June 10 Member No.: 18,649 |
I definitely don't want to go with better bonuses. I think 4 is alredy a huge leg up.
Well someone in VR on the ground with the squad is probably a liability. Especially in close jungle. One of the things I'd love to see with military grade tacnets, is not only do they give you bonuses. They remove negatives. Specificaly the ones with regards to blind fire, etc. A TacNet with enough sensors being fed into it, could potentially do things like Outline that Invisible Caster in giant NEON, because.. yes he's invisible. But he's also disturbing trees, blades of grass, people are subconciously moving around him. Yes, it's like the stuff the Seals have, except on Crack. |
|
|
Dec 22 2010, 08:12 PM
Post
#223
|
|
Target Group: Members Posts: 59 Joined: 20-March 10 From: Bricktown, Poland Member No.: 18,322 |
Well someone in VR on the ground with the squad is probably a liability. Especially in close jungle. And we have one difference in jungle combat - VR is risky. In urban, or regular battlefield environments the specialist could always find some cover, and keep close to support gunners. And the team would have his back through the TacNet. Off course he would take part in combat, but with special 'Tactical' moves, like testing conditions, ranges, popping smoke grenades (yes, a TN operator with a Grenade Launcher that allows quick ammo type swapping would be a great asset). And off course he would double as a comm specialist. That role probably even evolved from a comm specialist. One of the things I'd love to see with military grade tacnets, is not only do they give you bonuses. They remove negatives. Specificaly the ones with regards to blind fire, etc. A TacNet with enough sensors being fed into it, could potentially do things like Outline that Invisible Caster in giant NEON, because.. yes he's invisible. But he's also disturbing trees, blades of grass, people are subconciously moving around him. Well, regular TacNets do that too... Hmmm. Maybe we'll make a few TacNet program options, like those in Unwired? To simulate different types of TacNets for different types of units. |
|
|
Dec 22 2010, 08:15 PM
Post
#224
|
|
Prime Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,996 Joined: 1-June 10 Member No.: 18,649 |
It's true in Urban Settings, that comms guy is actually very useful. He's also a hell of alot easier to protect.
A minigrenade launcher with multiple clips and ammo selection being fired from VR.. would in fact be super useful. TacNet program options make alot of sense.. and maybe some of those add on programs? |
|
|
Dec 22 2010, 08:36 PM
Post
#225
|
|
Shooting Target Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 1,989 Joined: 28-July 09 From: Somewhere along the brazilian coast Member No.: 17,437 |
Do what I always wanted to do: a grenade launcher revolver fed. This way, with smart ammo selection you can choose any shot any time. Increase the drum to 8 shots and now you can have 2 shots of 4 different grenades without having to wait to reload.
My former weapons specialist wanted to design a weapon like this but didn't have the resources (i.e. a weapons' facility). So I settled for a GL-6 grenade launcher with ammo selection, built-in silencer, extra clip and ruthenium coating |
|
|
Lo-Fi Version | Time is now: 10th January 2025 - 05:21 AM |
Topps, Inc has sole ownership of the names, logo, artwork, marks, photographs, sounds, audio, video and/or any proprietary material used in connection with the game Shadowrun. Topps, Inc has granted permission to the Dumpshock Forums to use such names, logos, artwork, marks and/or any proprietary materials for promotional and informational purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not affiliated with the Dumpshock Forums in any official capacity whatsoever.