alt.WAR, Fixing War's problems by writing a new book Options

[Arclight]

That would mean multiple kitlists per grunt. No, I mean archetype characters with role-specific kitlists.

Like a "Sniper", or "Pathfinder", or "Medic", or "Gunner", each with "his" primary and secondary weapon, special kit like a ghillie or medic pack, armor, ammo, field kit, misc barracks/travel kit.

ATM, I am writing on the Ares unit. I decided to split the text into an inplay part and offplay gamemaster information. I think this is the best way to cater to different gaming styles Frank mentioned in Den, e.g. power-projection macrocorps with big armies and smaller units for the profit-making fans.

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

Ok then. I'll think of something and write it when I get back from class.

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

I'm having some problems issuing the kit for a grunt.
This is what I got so far:

survival kit
medkit RTG 3
trauma patch
SWAT Armor w/ Helmet
Colt M23

The cost is 10,850 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) . Is too much or not?

My reasoning anyway: the only reason I don't see milspec armor being issued to every grunt is because the armor is almost custom-made, i.e, you have to adapt the armor for each soldier's body, while the SWAT armor is the second best thing; it is not sealed and does not come with an integrated commlink but doesn't need to be customized, built-in biomonitor and comes with a helmet with integrated vision enhancements and gasmask.

Next, how many clips would be normally issued to a grunt. I believe it depends on the kind of mission, sure, but on average? 10 clips?
Of which ammo? I would vote for APDS, but APDS is three and a half times more expensive than regular ammo, but on the other hand, regular ammo would rarely hurt someone wearing a SWAT armor...

[Kyoto Kid]

...OK I came into this late and haven't yet made it through all nineteen pages.

So, what of the Balkans? Last I know, the region was pretty much ignored in SoE save for passing mention that it was considered a "merc playground". As there was no information, I did an extensive writeup of the region for a campaign I ran (unfortunately pre-crash 2.0), that was based on the fallout from the Euro War and long history of ethnic friction in the region.

[hermit]

Nothing set in stone so far, but we're taking (for a later issue, though). Nothing's saying you can't work on it though.

For the Balkans setting, the Crash shouldn't be a world shaking event anyway, crappy as it already was. Adapting it should be relatively easy. The only mention of the area after SoE has been in Feral Cities, which did a somewhat meh writeup of Sarajevo.

And here's a little something I wrote: Metahumans in the Army. Thoughts welcome.

[Arclight]

I'm having some problems issuing the kit for a grunt.
This is what I got so far:

survival kit
medkit RTG 3
trauma patch
SWAT Armor w/ Helmet
Colt M23

The cost is 10,850 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) . Is too much or not?

I'd see full armor more as a special item issued when there's need for it. A simple armored jacket should be okay, and solves the ammo type problem. I'd give him at least 8 mags, maybe a small backpack with another 4. And two smoke and 4 frag grenades. Don't forget a knife!

[hermit]

@Brasilian_shinobi: Secondary firearm, communications equipment might be added (radio/commlink). Possibly add armor mods to the armor and vision mods to the helmet.

What about rations and stuff?

[Arclight]

I'll do a small text on field cuisine.

Another thing: SR4 doesn't have weight stats for the equipment. We should have some sort of encumberance rules, I think.

[hermit]

Yeah, they ditched weight ... so either we make an encumberance chart, or we do this by (number) items per point of strength, or ... we just do it very abstract and leave it to the GM, in good SR4 tradition.

[Arclight]

And here's a little something I wrote: Metahumans in the Army. Thoughts welcome.

I like it, but I don't share the author's opinion (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Something I'd mention is the age problem with orks and trolls - there's an international agreement not to deploy underaged soldiers, this would heavily affect their use/recruitment. On the other side, they would be huge assets in civil wars, where some sides may lack funding and compensate this with their superior fighting powers.

[hermit]

Good thinking, though I do think orks will see use at least in non-SOTA state armies too (and I kind of doubt Aztlan gives a shit about underage soldiering anyway).

The author also clearly is biased. It's a pro-meta think tank. Trolls (IMHO) mostly have the problem of their significant silouette and size issues with using any but tailor made equipment, but could work well as specialised guards or heavy infantry (what with the massive, massive armor they can bring to bear) - say, in critter or spirit warfare. Specialised roles though. Could see them in the NAN forces, though, and some others for more political than practical reasons ('The NEEC is an equal opportunity union and we WILL have troll subramine crew!').

I'll work it over and emphathise their roles in sub-SOTA and guerilla armies, and the age issue.

[sabs]

You think that there's an international agreement not to deploy underaged soldiers in 2073?

Also, I completely disagree. Soldiers found on the battlefield would be wearing SWAT Armor (for high tech forces).
Senior NCOs and Junior Officers would have Light Milspec, Senior Officers would have Heavy Milspec.

The only time you're going to run into a grunt wearing an armored jacket is on base, or when he's on R&R

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

I'd see full armor more as a special item issued when there's need for it. A simple armored jacket should be okay, and solves the ammo type problem. I'd give him at least 8 mags, maybe a small backpack with another 4. And two smoke and 4 frag grenades. Don't forget a knife!

I don't know. If there is one thing I think armies wouldn't want to be cheap would be issuing armor. Paying 10 times more and you have a suit of armor that can take a blast explosion from a grenade at ground zero and still survive...

@Brasilian_shinobi: Secondary firearm, communications equipment might be added (radio/commlink). Possibly add armor mods to the armor and vision mods to the helmet.

What about rations and stuff?

I was getting there. Commlink I was thinking a rtg 3 commlink (better for officers and riggers/hackers, of course). The SWAT Helmet already comes with low-light, flare compensation, image link and smartlink. Rations and water, are magically inserted into survival kit (no kidding, read the book and see it for yourself).

[ramble mode on]
You know, I'm all about abstraction and simple rules, but if there is ONE THING that I think it's better be completely described and let each GM decide if they will use or not is the encumbrance rules of a game system. Which means that everything should have a weight.
[ramble mode off]

You think that there's an international agreement not to deploy underaged soldiers in 2073?

Also, I completely disagree. Soldiers found on the battlefield would be wearing SWAT Armor (for high tech forces).
Senior NCOs and Junior Officers would have Light Milspec, Senior Officers would have Heavy Milspec.

The only time you're going to run into a grunt wearing an armored jacket is on base, or when he's on R&R

Also, define 'underaged'. A 10 years old Ork can have children already. And reach peak performance on his early teens, right? I can see pro-metahumans countries reducing the legal age for Orks and Trolls with no problem.
I mentioned that Amazonia Army uses Humans and Orks like everybody else, but would extend on that when talking about the Army, that the governement reduced the legal age for Orks (and Shapeshifters).

[sabs]

We're not going through every book and putting weight on everything (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Just assume that Military types are +1 average body/str than the rest of their civilian fellows, and call it a day.

[Tzeentch]

You think that there's an international agreement not to deploy underaged soldiers in 2073?

-- Why not? They already have a whole passle of agreements that ban various weapons and tactics.

Also, I completely disagree. Soldiers found on the battlefield would be wearing SWAT Armor (for high tech forces).
Senior NCOs and Junior Officers would have Light Milspec, Senior Officers would have Heavy Milspec.

-- It's extremely unlikely any officer would agree to such a thing. Wearing different armor would mark them to even the most vision-impaired sniper. Milspec armor in Shadowrun is military in name only, it requires individual tailoring, which is a ridiculous logistics burden and Full Body Armor/SWAT Armor with gelpacks is comparable/better for a fraction of the price and trouble. Most of the military-grade armor enhancements are gimmicks, with only hydralic jacks and strength upgrade striking me as particularly useful (especially if you give it a troll).

The only time you're going to run into a grunt wearing an armored jacket is on base, or when he's on R&R

-- On base or R&R he's probably just going to wear his uniform, without any armor (unless the uniform has some limited protection, like Armor Clothing).

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

I know, I know. Like I said, it was just rambling...

So, PEACH:

backpack
survival kit
medkit RTG 3
trauma patch

SWAT Armor w/ Helmet
Chemical Protection 2, Fire Resistance 2, Insulation 2

Colt M23
8 clips of APDS ammo
Colt Government 2066
5 clips of APDS ammo
2 Flare grenades
4 High Explosive Grenades
2 Thermal Smoke Grenades

Novatech Airware with Iris Orb OS
Tacsoft 3
Analyze 3
Browse 3
Edit 3
Encrypt 3
ECCM 3

It costs 30,000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) (actually 29,995, but let's round it)

[sabs]

Civilians wear armored clothing in 2073..

Milspec armor also provides much more armor before encumbrance (body x3 vs body x2)

You're basically proposing that in 2073.. High Tech Militaries have /worse/ armor than they do today?

[Tzeentch]

backpack
survival kit
medkit RTG 3
trauma patch

-- These look fine. I do find it amusing how expensive and crappy the trauma patch is in SR (they are often worse than a medkit and are not even faster to use). Might be something to address.

SWAT Armor w/ Helmet
Chemical Protection 2, Fire Resistance 2, Insulation 2

-- I can see Fire Resistant. The other two seem a bit more unlikely, usually being the sort of thing offloaded to specialist gear.

-- Just a thought, but armor for technicians, aircrew, and the like is probably very similar to the urban explorer jumpsuit (arguably the most cost effective pieces of armor in the game).

Colt M23
8 clips of APDS ammo
Colt Government 2066
5 clips of APDS ammo
2 Flare grenades
4 High Explosive Grenades
2 Thermal Smoke Grenades

-- Why the stripped down M23 and not the M22A3 or better? What gun options does it have? The following come to mind:
* Advanced Safety (not cost effective at all in its current form though)
* Safe Target System (maybe, it's very expensive)
* External smartgun system
* Imaging scope (comes with the M22A3, but it has no options standard)
* Sling
* Foregrip
* Laser Designator (at least a rating 1 seems like a no-brainer).

-- Note that a pedant will object to you using "clip" when it should be magazine (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

-- A return to heavy pistols as a sidearm makes sense given the armor ratings of even armor clothing. Five magazines seems like a lot for what is an emergency weapon. Most would just carry more rifle ammo instead.

-- Needs a knife or survival knife. It's a combination utility tool, "peace of mind" backup, and something to use in a pinch against spirits (see Attack of Will, p. 94, Street Magic).

[Tzeentch]

Civilians wear armored clothing in 2073..

Milspec armor also provides much more armor before encumbrance (body x3 vs body x2)

-- To both: So?

You're basically proposing that in 2073.. High Tech Militaries have /worse/ armor than they do today?

-- I'm proposing that they would buy armor that's just as good but doesn't have the tailoring requirement, which shuts down military-grade armor as an option for extensive organizational deployment. That, and it's stupidly expensive for what amounts to having a cool name and a few decent perks.

[sabs]

-- Why the stripped down M23 and not the M22A3 or better? What gun options does it have? The following come to mind:
* Advanced Safety (not cost effective at all in its current form though)
* Safe Target System (maybe, it's very expensive)

I don't think cost is a serious issue in this case. They're going to be buying 30,000 of these from Ares. And remember the costs in arsenal are for after market modifications. We routinely have weapons with built in mods that are /much/ cheaper than doing it yourself (I'm looking at you White Knight)

* External smartgun system
* Imaging scope (comes with the M22A3, but it has no options standard)
* Sling
* Foregrip

Sling yes, foregrip? No. Yes it helps with recoil, but it hurts your targeting. You can't realistically fire prone with a weapon that has a foregrip. If the foregrip can be detachable, or foldable.. then maybe.
The smartgun system would be internal most likely.

* Laser Designator (at least a rating 1 seems like a no-brainer).

Can you have this and smartgun on the same gun?

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

-- These look fine. I do find it amusing how expensive and crappy the trauma patch is in SR (they are often worse than a medkit and are not even faster to use). Might be something to address.

I agree, but I think it is the last resource stuff that you use to prevent a soldier from dying.

-- I can see Fire Resistant. The other two seem a bit more unlikely, usually being the sort of thing offloaded to specialist gear.

I agree with Insulation, it was more fore completion sake. About chemical protection, are we to assume that the Geneve Convention is somehow still agreed upon? If so, the gas mask of the helmet should be enough.

-- Just a thought, but armor for technicians, aircrew, and the like is probably very similar to the urban explorer jumpsuit (arguably the most cost effective pieces of armor in the game).

That's an idea.

-- Why the stripped down M23 and not the M22A3 or better? What gun options does it have? The following come to mind:
* Advanced Safety (not cost effective at all in its current form though)
* Safe Target System (maybe, it's very expensive)
* External smartgun system
* Imaging scope (comes with the M22A3, but it has no options standard)
* Sling
* Foregrip
* Laser Designator (at least a rating 1 seems like a no-brainer).

I think it's better to work with a clean weapon and add stuff as necessary. But I agree, I should have listed the mods and add-ons this weapon would have.

-- A return to heavy pistols as a sidearm makes sense given the armor ratings of even armor clothing. Five magazines seems like a lot for what is an emergency weapon. Most would just carry more rifle ammo instead.

Ok, I'll reduce the amount of magazines.

-- Needs a knife or survival knife. It's a combination utility tool, "peace of mind" backup, and something to use in a pinch against spirits (see Attack of Will, p. 94, Street Magic).

It's already listed in 'survival gear'

[hermit]

I'd push the programs and the link a bit- say, give it Iris Orb Military edition (System 3, Firewall 6) and have ECCM, Encrypt and Analys have the option "optimised 3". Still keep it at 30K because it's a package deal.

And make it all be produced by Ares subsidiaries. Since Sr is a corp controlled world, everything needs to be branded. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) Call that my little quirk, but I like this.

Kinda like:

backpack (Victory M12 Packrat)
survival kit (Victory M9 outroods pack)
medkit RTG 3 (Cross Biomed Therèse M3)
trauma patch (Cross Biomed ReVivre)

SWAT Armor w/ Helmet (Victory Specialist Mk. 2)
Chemical Protection 2, Fire Resistance 2, Insulation 2

Colt M23
8 clips of APDS ammo
Colt Government 2066
5 clips of APDS ammo
2 Flare grenades
4 High Explosive Grenades
2 Thermal Smoke Grenades

SV/Apple Bishop Commlink (like Novatech Airware) with Eotech/AppleOS Military (3/6)
Eotech Global Warrior Suite (counts as one program, cumulative program cost*0,9)
* Tacsoft 3
* Analyze 6 (optimised 3)
* Encrypt 6 (optimised 3)
* ECCM 6 (optimised 3)
SV/Apple Daktari (Browse 3)
SV/Apple iXpress Suite (Edit 3)

I'll recalculate once i'm at home. And yes, Ares owns Apple (CFS Sourcebook), and Apple still produces software (Burning Bright).

[Tzeentch]

I don't think cost is a serious issue in this case. They're going to be buying 30,000 of these from Ares. And remember the costs in arsenal are for after market modifications. We routinely have weapons with built in mods that are /much/ cheaper than doing it yourself (I'm looking at you White Knight)

-- True enough. In which case the Safe Target System might be more likely. I'm ambivalent about the Advanced Safety as it just looks like another dangerous point of failure with how hacking works (and can you trust that the manufacturer didn't put in a million back-doors?).

Sling yes, foregrip? No. Yes it helps with recoil, but it hurts your targeting. You can't realistically fire prone with a weapon that has a foregrip. If the foregrip can be detachable, or foldable.. then maybe.

-- I've fired prone with a foregrip with no problem. I'm not sure how it would even come up as an issue (the magazine is more of an impediment). Hell, I wish I had a Grip-pod (ah, that's a new piece of SR gear for ya) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

The smartgun system would be internal most likely.

-- Agreed, if you're going with the stripped-down base gun (but that goes back to the daft way they charge for the smartgun mod).

Can you have this and smartgun on the same gun?

-- Are you confusing it with the laser sight? I'm speaking about a target designator (p. 34, Arsenal).

[sabs]

I think that all Military commlinks should have an R3 or so Agent with a personality mod. Sort of a virtual assistant/Drill Sergeant. It handles the "anti-hacking" and it coordinates the electronic warfare parts so taht the average grunt just talks to his pilot, and gets it to do everything he needs.

Data searches in the military databases.
Modifications to the TacNet/Commlink.
etc..

This is cheap to accomplish, and immensely useful.

[hermit]

And give the agent the Home Ground software. It adds it's rating to everything the agent does in that 'link.