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> War!, and other upcoming releases in SRM
KarmaInferno
post Jan 14 2011, 04:59 PM
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QUOTE (Wasabi @ Jan 14 2011, 06:48 AM) *
Am I the only one showing calcs that with Negotiation dicepools in the mid 20's it takes 2 months to get something with an avail of 40?

Depends on the item.

For the stuff that's 10,000 nuyen and up, yes, it will take weeks.

There's a LOT of gear in War! that is under 10K, though. And for those items it will take mere days or even hours to acquire.

And the stuff that is in the mid-20s Availability can be obtained by even runners with merely average Negotiate scores. (Skills and attributes in the 2 to 4 range, plus gear and other easily obtained bonuses) It doesn't take a cheese monkey to get there, given that it's an extended test and you have Street Cred to add to the pool.

As someone who has been involved with Living campaigns for more than a decade, and helped run one as an admin, I can say with certainty that if it can be abused by players, it will be abused.



-k
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Wraith235
post Jan 14 2011, 06:52 PM
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QUOTE (Bull @ Jan 14 2011, 07:57 AM) *
Never said I was foolish enough to put it on NPCs you'll be able to actually loot (At least not without completely botching up the run or game (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) ).

And again... *shrug* Twinks will twink, min maxers will min max. And you're STILL dropping a LOT of cash and doing nothing else in game for 2 months if that's what you're doing (after all, you can't run if you're out negotiating).

We did what we could to make the game run smoother and easier for the majority of players, and to balance things out as much as possible. But if someone is bound and determined, they can break or "game" the system, no matter what we do. I can't (and won't) worry about the 1% of players that are going to be cheese monkeys. That's up to GMs to deal with on an individual basis.

Bull



which brings up a point that Ive considered but never asked


if an Item that your attempting to aquire takes (for the sake of my brain the aforementioned ) 2 months and on the formula that runs happen once a week how do you handle that on your calander ... do you just "Take a break" for 2 months waiting for your equipment to arrive and pay 2 months of lifestyle as well as the cost of the Item ? thats one thing in the FAQ's that Ive never seen addressed
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Hida Tsuzua
post Jan 14 2011, 07:23 PM
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From my understanding, you can take as much time as you want "off" between missions, but you can't go on a mission more than once a week. You just have to keep playing your lifestyle bills (or have trust fund). I was planning a character at one point who after the first mission locked himself in a basement for 5 years to program all his programs though I don't think I'll ever actually seriously play him.
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Bull
post Jan 14 2011, 08:14 PM
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Pretty much, yeah.

And again, while I did what I could for the gear... The problem, honestly, lies in the way the gear rules are designed and the prices for some of that stuff. THe Availability rules are flawed. Unfortunately, there's not a lot I can do about that for now.

Bull
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Wraith235
post Jan 15 2011, 07:22 PM
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I can concieve a 30 dice pool for programing .... 1 more allows you to churn a rating 12 Hacking program out in 6 weeks
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Hida Tsuzua
post Jan 15 2011, 11:55 PM
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QUOTE (Wraith235 @ Jan 15 2011, 07:22 PM) *
I can concieve a 30 dice pool for programing .... 1 more allows you to churn a rating 12 Hacking program out in 6 weeks


I don't think you need to be that extreme. Programming Environment Access is 100Y a day so you're paying 4200Y for that. Just take 12 weeks, live a low lifestyle, and pay the extra 3000Y for lifestyle (1.5 months) rather than 4200Y. Better yet, just have a roommate and pay 1100Y a month in lifestyle. Or grab Trust Fund. Program everything you need and while pocketing the spare cash. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif) It's sad that spoofing a lifestyle isn't in SRM4, but what can you do?

Secondly, I'll recommend staying at the new rating "cap" of 10. It's not as good as 12, but it's way more in the clear since rating 10 programs now exist in purchasable form. While a GM may still veto your programming plan, you at least have the argument that it's at an available rating and not a theoretical rating.

Also you don't need a 30 dice pool to program. A rating 10 hacking program with optimization 5 (so you can run it on a starting Singularity Battle Buddy Basic) takes 20 hits and then 5 hits. With a programming die pool of 23, you can get 5+5+5+5 hits and get the program 10 in 4 months and 1 extra month for the optimizatio0 (5 months total). Programming with 20 dice, you get 5+4+4+4+4 and get the program 10 in 5 months and 2 months for the optimization (7 months total). Programming with 17 dice gets you 4+4+3+3+3+3 and takes 6 months + 2 months (8 months total). The lowest you can go is 14 dice and 12 months total.

With a logic of 5 (soft cap or hard cap depending on race), software 4 (from electronics group 4 most hackers have), analytic mind (good for this and data searching), PuSHeD (cheap must have for hackers), neocortial nanties in a hive (really nice for hackers), and a programming suite 5 (cheap), you have a die pool of 20, a break point. At a low lifestyle (squatter may be too low) that's 7 months lifestyle or 14000Y and ~668Y in nanohive feed. The only real costs for a hacker is a logic of 5 and the programming suite at 5000Y. Everything else is stuff they'll generally want anyways. You can cut 3 dice somewhere and pay an extra 2000Y per program.

To save on your biggest cost, lifestyle, you can live like this.
The Programmer Lifestyle- 1400Y
[ Spoiler ]
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Wraith235
post Jan 16 2011, 04:13 PM
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QUOTE (Hida Tsuzua @ Jan 15 2011, 07:55 PM) *
I don't think you need to be that extreme. Programming Environment Access is 100Y a day so you're paying 4200Y for that. Just take 12 weeks, live a low lifestyle, and pay the extra 3000Y for lifestyle (1.5 months) rather than 4200Y. Better yet, just have a roommate and pay 1100Y a month in lifestyle. Or grab Trust Fund. Program everything you need and while pocketing the spare cash. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif) It's sad that spoofing a lifestyle isn't in SRM4, but what can you do?

Secondly, I'll recommend staying at the new rating "cap" of 10. It's not as good as 12, but it's way more in the clear since rating 10 programs now exist in purchasable form. While a GM may still veto your programming plan, you at least have the argument that it's at an available rating and not a theoretical rating.

Also you don't need a 30 dice pool to program. A rating 10 hacking program with optimization 5 (so you can run it on a starting Singularity Battle Buddy Basic) takes 20 hits and then 5 hits. With a programming die pool of 23, you can get 5+5+5+5 hits and get the program 10 in 4 months and 1 extra month for the optimizatio0 (5 months total). Programming with 20 dice, you get 5+4+4+4+4 and get the program 10 in 5 months and 2 months for the optimization (7 months total). Programming with 17 dice gets you 4+4+3+3+3+3 and takes 6 months + 2 months (8 months total). The lowest you can go is 14 dice and 12 months total.

With a logic of 5 (soft cap or hard cap depending on race), software 4 (from electronics group 4 most hackers have), analytic mind (good for this and data searching), PuSHeD (cheap must have for hackers), neocortial nanties in a hive (really nice for hackers), and a programming suite 5 (cheap), you have a die pool of 20, a break point. At a low lifestyle (squatter may be too low) that's 7 months lifestyle or 14000Y and ~668Y in nanohive feed. The only real costs for a hacker is a logic of 5 and the programming suite at 5000Y. Everything else is stuff they'll generally want anyways. You can cut 3 dice somewhere and pay an extra 2000Y per program.

To save on your biggest cost, lifestyle, you can live like this.
The Programmer Lifestyle- 1400Y
[ Spoiler ]


your forgetting the Programing of the ARE Enviroment which cuts your intervals in 1/2 .... also you forgot the Encephalon which is OMFG for hackers + lvl 3 Logic boosters (Just woke up so dont remember the names)
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Hida Tsuzua
post Jan 16 2011, 05:18 PM
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QUOTE (Wraith235 @ Jan 16 2011, 04:13 PM) *
your forgetting the Programing of the ARE Enviroment which cuts your intervals in 1/2 .... also you forgot the Encephalon which is OMFG for hackers + lvl 3 Logic boosters (Just woke up so dont remember the names)


I did bring up Programming Environment Access and it's not worth it compared to cheap lifestyles in the first paragraph. It's 2800Y a month and you can live in low lifestyle and save 800Y or the programmer's lifestyle and save 1400Y. Or live middle with a roommate and save 50Y a month. If you're paying more than 2800Y a month in lifestyle, then PEA is worth it, but since you're a guy who's planning on spending years of his life programming it's reasonable to assume his lifestyle bills won't be that high. Trust Fund makes you money over time, so you don't want to pay to lose cash.

You can theoretically hack your way into a Programming Environment and get access for free. However to my knowledge, there are no rules for this (how tough is this system? how often do they check for fake accounts?) and thus shouldn't be factored in the calculations due to possible GM range in responses.

Secondly, it's more that you're not saving yourself much time by breaking 20 programming dice pool. Let's look at the 30 dice pool in my example. That's 7+7+7 for 21 hits in 3 months and 1 month for Optimization. 10 dice saves you 1 month or 1400-2750Y+84Y for nanite feed. So balance out the costs of getting those 10 dice to save that lifestyle. There's 18 hacking programs so you're saving 25200-49500Y+1500Y for whatever you have to burn for those 10 dice (likely karma, a decent amount of cash, or qualities). You've saving less if you don't every hacking program at 10. If you burn 10 quality points for Trust Fund, then time really doesn't matter.

I must admit I don't really factor in the Encephalon mainly since it's a tad expensive for starting characters for my taste, but that's mainly because I don't like "pure hackers" and need to put the cash elsewhere so they can face, magic, and/or street samurai well. If you have an existing character, then you'll have to work with how that character is set up. But honestly at this point in missions, you should have just pirated while you had the chance.

Now, you can be a hacker who has little to no programs his first missions run and then rating 10 programs for his second missions run. If you have Trust Fund and don't want to ruin it, the character could just sit in a bar getting drunk instead of being anyway involved with the illegal stuff. I don't think you want to do hackers this way. While legal, it's sleazy. It's also odd when his calenders read 2080 and everyone else's reads 2073. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)
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Wraith235
post Jan 17 2011, 02:30 PM
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QUOTE (Hida Tsuzua @ Jan 16 2011, 12:18 PM) *
I did bring up Programming Environment Access and it's not worth it compared to cheap lifestyles in the first paragraph. It's 2800Y a month and you can live in low lifestyle and save 800Y or the programmer's lifestyle and save 1400Y. Or live middle with a roommate and save 50Y a month. If you're paying more than 2800Y a month in lifestyle, then PEA is worth it, but since you're a guy who's planning on spending years of his life programming it's reasonable to assume his lifestyle bills won't be that high. Trust Fund makes you money over time, so you don't want to pay to lose cash.

You can theoretically hack your way into a Programming Environment and get access for free. However to my knowledge, there are no rules for this (how tough is this system? how often do they check for fake accounts?) and thus shouldn't be factored in the calculations due to possible GM range in responses.

Secondly, it's more that you're not saving yourself much time by breaking 20 programming dice pool. Let's look at the 30 dice pool in my example. That's 7+7+7 for 21 hits in 3 months and 1 month for Optimization. 10 dice saves you 1 month or 1400-2750Y+84Y for nanite feed. So balance out the costs of getting those 10 dice to save that lifestyle. There's 18 hacking programs so you're saving 25200-49500Y+1500Y for whatever you have to burn for those 10 dice (likely karma, a decent amount of cash, or qualities). You've saving less if you don't every hacking program at 10. If you burn 10 quality points for Trust Fund, then time really doesn't matter.

I must admit I don't really factor in the Encephalon mainly since it's a tad expensive for starting characters for my taste, but that's mainly because I don't like "pure hackers" and need to put the cash elsewhere so they can face, magic, and/or street samurai well. If you have an existing character, then you'll have to work with how that character is set up. But honestly at this point in missions, you should have just pirated while you had the chance.

Now, you can be a hacker who has little to no programs his first missions run and then rating 10 programs for his second missions run. If you have Trust Fund and don't want to ruin it, the character could just sit in a bar getting drunk instead of being anyway involved with the illegal stuff. I don't think you want to do hackers this way. While legal, it's sleazy. It's also odd when his calenders read 2080 and everyone else's reads 2073. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)


I was talking about Coding your Own ARE ... threshold 12 1 month .... you pay for 2 weeks ... code your own ... then bam
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Hida Tsuzua
post Jan 17 2011, 03:01 PM
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QUOTE (Wraith235 @ Jan 17 2011, 02:30 PM) *
I was talking about Coding your Own ARE ... threshold 12 1 month .... you pay for 2 weeks ... code your own ... then bam


That's not the same thing. An AR environment is just a fluff thing. So you can totally make your commlink of doom smell like roses with Scentsation, block out unwanted AR stuff with Negator, or make you look different in AR with Body Shop. But that isn't the super secret sauce Nexus Programming with "expert programming agents designed specifically for the computing capacity of corporate nexi." Look under page 108 in Unwired where they describe what AR Environments are.
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Wraith235
post Jan 28 2011, 01:31 AM
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took me a while to get back due to medical stuff


you are right .... one other question I have is where it says that program options have to be coded when the program is created ... I poured over the books time and time again looking for this ....

from what it seems if you code the program and the option you can just plug it in ...

pg 114 unwired

Program options are modifcations to a program that alter its
basic operation. In the 70s, computer programs feature modular
designs that allow their functions to be easily enhanced (or limit-
ed) by add-ons, subroutine plug-ins, or patches
. Options, however,
dramatically increase the complexity of the sofware rules. Te in-
teraction of options and programs can become quite intricate, so
gamemasters and players should become thoroughly familiar with
the standard rules before introducing options into their games.
Gamemasters may, of course, choose to only introduce specifc
options into their games.


also there is the Coffin motel lifestyle for 500 a month
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Hida Tsuzua
post Jan 28 2011, 04:58 PM
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QUOTE (Wraith235 @ Jan 28 2011, 02:31 AM) *
you are right .... one other question I have is where it says that program options have to be coded when the program is created ... I poured over the books time and time again looking for this ....

from what it seems if you code the program and the option you can just plug it in ...

also there is the Coffin motel lifestyle for 500 a month


You don't have to make the program option together with the program. You can "plug it in" as long as you have the source code (Unwired 118). I can't find anything saying it's Optimization 5 Only for Exploit or not. However I just factor that you make a new program option for every program in SRM due to the no copying SRM rule.

Coffin Hotel Lifestyle seems like a good "programming" lifestyle. I think I know a guy who lived like that while programming in real life. With that, you spend 3500Y per program at programming pool of 20. Fairly affordable. I do however recommend against actually pulling this play in real play. I just like the thought experiment myself. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)
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Wraith235
post Jan 29 2011, 02:34 PM
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well I picked up War ... and while scanning through some things I noticed something on page 144

Milspec Program Ratings
Programs that adhere to military-grade specifcations have
ratings that range from 7 to 10, representing the bleeding edge of
Matrix technology and innovation. Systems and software at such
a high level of sophistication tend to be quickly subsumed by the
push for even newer and more advanced exploits, programming
techniques, and algorithms. As a result, programs that have ratings
higher than 6 su er from degradation at the same rate as pirated
so ware—1 point every two months (p. 109, Unwired). Milspec
programs cannot be patched to “fix” the degradation, but such a
program stops degrading once it reaches Rating 6, at which point
it becomes a “normal” program.

now my question is does this statment

QUOTE
However, it is assumed
that all programs that players purchase have been stripped of their
Registration, and that they do not degrade over time.


Trump the degradation of Milspec programs if Bought ..... what about if you program it yourself ?

Can you even Code your own programs since in the FAQ it states you cannot Craft Foci ?
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Hida Tsuzua
post Jan 29 2011, 05:10 PM
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QUOTE (Wraith235 @ Jan 29 2011, 03:34 PM) *
well I picked up War ... and while scanning through some things I noticed something on page 144

Milspec Program Ratings
Programs that adhere to military-grade specifcations have
ratings that range from 7 to 10, representing the bleeding edge of
Matrix technology and innovation. Systems and software at such
a high level of sophistication tend to be quickly subsumed by the
push for even newer and more advanced exploits, programming
techniques, and algorithms. As a result, programs that have ratings
higher than 6 su er from degradation at the same rate as pirated
so ware—1 point every two months (p. 109, Unwired). Milspec
programs cannot be patched to “fix” the degradation, but such a
program stops degrading once it reaches Rating 6, at which point
it becomes a “normal” program.

now my question is does this statment

Trump the degradation of Milspec programs if Bought ..... what about if you program it yourself ?

Can you even Code your own programs since in the FAQ it states you cannot Craft Foci ?


Technically, the answer to "do self-programmed programs degrade?" is "maybe." Since the FAQ sentence "However, it is assumed that all programs that players purchase have been stripped of their Registration, and that they do not degrade over time" only refers to purchased programs, it doesn't covered self-made programs. However, self-made programs only degrade at GM fiat (Unwired Errata) and odds are in Missions they won't do it. If they just use Unwired, they degrade as normal. On the other hand, GMs are equally likely to apply the "does not degrade" FAQ to self-made programs. In other words, it boils down to a big ball of "ask your GM." Does Bull have any comments on this?

And yes, you can code your own programs regardless of the craft foci rules and rulings. It's not explicitly or implicitly banned anywhere and is separate from foci creation.
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Yerameyahu
post Jan 29 2011, 07:44 PM
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I'd just like to put in that the use of the word 'modular' (mentioned by Wraith235 in post #36) doesn't mean that program options are little standalone bits to be mixed and matched. (I'm not saying they absolutely can't, but that *is* my current conclusion from the rest of the rules).

'Modular' in that sentence ("In the 70s, computer programs feature modular designs that allow their functions to be easily enhanced (or limited) by add-ons, subroutine plug-ins, or patches") merely means that you can take a program and add options (by programming, per the table on Unwired p119), or purchase a given program with options pre-installed. It is definitely not possible to *buy* 'standalone' options and plug them wherever, because their Avail/Cost is presented as a modifier to the 'mother' program only.
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Wraith235
post Jan 29 2011, 10:05 PM
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QUOTE (Hida Tsuzua @ Jan 29 2011, 01:10 PM) *
Technically, the answer to "do self-programmed programs degrade?" is "maybe." Since the FAQ sentence "However, it is assumed that all programs that players purchase have been stripped of their Registration, and that they do not degrade over time" only refers to purchased programs, it doesn't covered self-made programs. However, self-made programs only degrade at GM fiat (Unwired Errata) and odds are in Missions they won't do it. If they just use Unwired, they degrade as normal. On the other hand, GMs are equally likely to apply the "does not degrade" FAQ to self-made programs. In other words, it boils down to a big ball of "ask your GM." Does Bull have any comments on this?

And yes, you can code your own programs regardless of the craft foci rules and rulings. It's not explicitly or implicitly banned anywhere and is separate from foci creation.



Fair enuf I had forgotten about unwired Errata ...

QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jan 29 2011, 03:44 PM) *
I'd just like to put in that the use of the word 'modular' (mentioned by Wraith235 in post #36) doesn't mean that program options are little standalone bits to be mixed and matched. (I'm not saying they absolutely can't, but that *is* my current conclusion from the rest of the rules).

'Modular' in that sentence ("In the 70s, computer programs feature modular designs that allow their functions to be easily enhanced (or limited) by add-ons, subroutine plug-ins, or patches") merely means that you can take a program and add options (by programming, per the table on Unwired p119), or purchase a given program with options pre-installed. It is definitely not possible to *buy* 'standalone' options and plug them wherever, because their Avail/Cost is presented as a modifier to the 'mother' program only.


ya ... thats a big level of confusion I see both sides of it ... the Idea of "I have programed the program therefore I have the source Code .... and I have programmed the option therefore I have the source code"
vs.
the way Program options are presented for purchase in Unwired

I suppose err on the side of caution and just program them up to include the option and take the extra time for each

so I guess the last part of this is on Bull and is 2 parts and is Specifically Limited to Milspec Programs in WAR!

A) Can you code your own programs at ratings 7-10 ( I would not be suprised or annoyed if the answer was no)
B) do they degrade at a rate of 1 per 2 months as stated in WAR on page 144


also based on an earlier question about downtime ...if you have the skills / lifestyle ect covered during Chargen, can you spend time programming/crafting ect before you run your 1st mission

Reason Im asking about this is when you start programming full Hacker loadouts the time involved borders on the ridiculous somewhere in the neighborhood of 10+ years .... while I understand that this is technically leagal in missions it starts to not make sense when you examine the scope of things

if the overall Idea is that time is Irrellevent for the overall .... as long as you have the paperwork correct then thats fine ... just like to know where this stands
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