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> Cyberware and Burial, Where does it go?
Ramaloke
post Dec 21 2010, 03:58 AM
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I was curious if anybody knew the "Standard Operating Procedure" for burials and cyberware. Is it salvaged and sold as secondhand ware? Somehow I doubt that, I mean, yes, the black market is certainly going to be filled with it, but what about legal burials?

The reason I ask is possession spirits with regeneration can sit in a dead body and it wont ever decay.

/shrug
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KamikazePilot
post Dec 21 2010, 04:09 AM
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they may have another category in their driver's licence next to Organ Donor that says Cyberware Donor.
but then again if you had an uncle that died and she had a metal plate or knee or shoulder pins from some surgeries, do you salvage them so you can sell them at the metal salvage yards?
I think there may be still some 'humanity' left in 2072 SR world to let the dead rest in peace.

As for the spirits, well current traditional church procedures can extend to the astral with warding/killing of said spirits inhabiting the body before letting the body into the ground.
But maybe cremation is the way to go for majority of people so that limits the possession spirits living in dead bodies game (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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Yerameyahu
post Dec 21 2010, 04:15 AM
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I think there's a big difference between metal pins and complex, expensive implanted electronics. Bone lacing and things probably wouldn't go anywhere (can you imagine?), but cyberlimbs? Implanted comms? Cybereyes, for sure.
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Ramaloke
post Dec 21 2010, 04:55 AM
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Im not so sure, Yerameyahu, it seems to me that people would be upset if the open casket body only had one or two limbs. I just dont think that your average person will be ok with that type of behavior. Though, perhaps burial has become so expensive that harvesting for resale is the only way the family could afford a decent plot/headstone.

I'm also curious about cremation in 2072.
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Yerameyahu
post Dec 21 2010, 05:07 AM
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Being upset is the base state in Shadowrun. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Presumably, no one could afford burial, and your limbs probably belong to the corp anyway. Cremation is better, and some emerging non-cremation disposal methods are better still.
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KCKitsune
post Dec 21 2010, 05:07 AM
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QUOTE (Ramaloke @ Dec 20 2010, 11:55 PM) *
Im not so sure, Yerameyahu, it seems to me that people would be upset if the open casket body only had one or two limbs.


I think that the dead person is not going to be using said cyberlimbs, that you can put on just regular plastic limbs. They just have to look close enough to the original that the people looking at it could not know the difference.
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Yerameyahu
post Dec 21 2010, 05:09 AM
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Current undertakers do worse, after all. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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KamikazePilot
post Dec 21 2010, 05:18 AM
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well usual cremation once the furnase has finished its bizo the close family members then pick off the bones left on the tray and they they pummel them to make the ash.

so im guessing with the cyberred person they would have 2 different collectino trays. one for the bones and one for the cyber. you get to keep your grand mammas cyberhip. what you do with it its up to you (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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Ramaloke
post Dec 21 2010, 05:22 AM
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Well, hold on, we've actually got something in the books that would prohibit atleast some ware harvesting.

Emphasis Mine:

QUOTE (Augmentation @ Page 32)
SECOND-HAND CYBERWARE

Though more affordable than competing augmentation technologies, cyberware is still expensive for the average consumer. Consequently, there’s a strong gray and black market for second-hand cyber available to the less discriminating customer. While most second-hand cyberware surfaces when former users upgrade implants and sell off their old ’ware, inevitably a lot of used cyberware finds its way to the market from more unsavory sources. Unfortunately, implantation problems tend to manifest more often with used cyberware than with new cyberware. Accordingly, most legal clinics shy away from used cyber, though backstreet shadowclinics and ripper docs will often have some in stock or know where to get hold of it.

Only standard and alpha-grade cyberware is available as second-hand cyberware. Beta and deltaware implants are too custom-tailored and modified to be fitted to anyone other than the person they were originally designed for. After locating a source for your second hand cyberware, apply the Essence Cost, Availability, and Cost modifiers as noted on the table below to the appropriate implant. Implantation is conducted as normal (see Installing/Repairing Cyberware and Bioware, p. 126).
So it seems that:

A) Most legal clinics wont touch anything harvested from a dead body, this would imply that there are at least some mortuaries that dont bother harvesting the ware. Since not many of them would know a black clinic they could sell the parts to. I mean, black clinics dont necessarily advertise as black clinics.

B) Anything above Alphaware is a non-starter. If somebody could afford all betaware cyber then Im sure they could afford to be buried. At the very least, there is some ware that wont be harvested simply because it's too custom to be of any use to others.
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Yerameyahu
post Dec 21 2010, 05:26 AM
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I think you're underestimating the proximity of Joe Average to the backstreets. Mrs. Average is approached or approaches them, ba-da-bing, ba-da-boom. It's a dark future. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I still strongly bet that there are situations where corps own your cyber and will take it back.

Yes, if you can afford beta, you can't sell your 'ware and don't really need to. *shrug* Doesn't change much. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Besides, don't forget that the 'rich' are people who can afford better soy. Burial is a luxurious strain on society today; in 2070, I just don't see it for anyone but the 1%-ers, and they probably wouldn't want it.
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Ramaloke
post Dec 21 2010, 05:30 AM
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Oh, I'm sure there are, I'm just saying that a betaware cybered body should be buried on a relatively common basis in the world.

The reason I'm asking is that normally making "zombies", or spiritually possessed corpses, is a dumb idea. Zombies rot, they fall apart, they stink, and are in general, icky. However if the spirit has regeneration it will regenerate it's vessel and if they have aura masking + realistic form the body will even show vital signs and appear mundane in the astral. It seems that there would be value in finding a beta-cybered body and possessing it if you were such a spirit.

-edit-

Maybe what I need for this purpose would be a mortician contact or somesuch.
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Yerameyahu
post Dec 21 2010, 05:35 AM
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Ha, I knew it was for some munchkin purpose! You. No, you cannot have a betaware-cybered vessel. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) In other news, there are spirits with Regeneration?

In all seriousness, I really feel like burial is rare (rarer even than betaware). I'd have to search the canon for info about it, because it's just a feeling. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

SR4a mentions an 'unceremonious burial' in a fluff text (with an illustration of a 'secret shallow grave'-type situation), in the Barrens.
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Ramaloke
post Dec 21 2010, 05:41 AM
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You caught me red handed! Yeah, I generally like come up with "why cant I's" or "what if's" like this.

For your reference:

QUOTE (Street Magic @ Page 109)
Regeneration
Type: P • Action: Auto • Range: Self • Duration: Always
This power is similar to the critter power of Regeneration (p. 290, SR4), and applies only to the spirit’s materialized, possessed, or inhabited form. Additionally, if the free spirit with this power possesses or inhabits a vessel that used to be alive, the vessel will gradually regenerate back to its original living form. A wooden homunculus grows leaves and roots, for example, while a corpse regains the semblance of life.
QUOTE (Street Magic @ Page 102)
Realistic Form
Type: P • Action: Auto • Range: Self • Duration: Special
A spirit with Realistic Form can be mistaken for a normal physical creature or object when it materializes, or it appears unremarkable when joined to a vessel. A spirit that appears as a metahuman would have a heartbeat and a regular breathing rate. A spirit that appeared as an object mimics the object’s normal functionality; for example, a toaster could be plugged into the wall to toast bread (though it would have no Matrix link, making it an antique toaster). The spirit is in no way disguised from the astral plane, but to physical observation appears to any senses to be a natural part of the physical world. Note that spirits with the Materialization power normally only have one materialized form. Materializing spirits with this power can choose to appear using Realistic Form or their normal materialized form. A fire elemental can still appear as a column of angry flames, but might also be able to appear as a beautiful woman.
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Yerameyahu
post Dec 21 2010, 05:45 AM
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Ah, I hadn't heard about that; specifically for spirits. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I did know about Realistic Form.

So, sounds like your plan will work perfectly with a normal body, not a souped-up one. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

QUOTE (Augmentation p17)
Small-time criminals, chipheads, and drug addicts kidnap people and sell them to bodyshops for some quick nuyen; some even sell out their relatives, dead or dying, for spare parts. Why bury or cremate a body when you have cold, hard cash sitting on the slab?
So, this tells us a tiny bit. Bury and cremate must be options, and not everyone sells parts ('ware or meat), but some do. More:
QUOTE
It’s not just Tamanous either. I heard about this family in Des Moines, where the mother died from natural causes and they wanted to give her a proper funeral. The hospital she died in says they’ll take care of the details, for a nominal charge of course, and recommends cremation over casket burial. After some discussion, the family agrees. Frankly, it’s just cheaper. Anyway, the hospital presents the sealed casket so they can offer their final good-byes, and then they watch as the casket roll into the furnace. Half-hour later, they get a nice little gilt urn with her ashes. Neat and tidy, right?
Wrong. Turns out that the hospital took the mother’s body and resourced as much as they could out of it. Organs, blood, bones, whatever they could recycle for other purposes, they took. Didn’t even compensate the family. The sealed casket held what little was left over. The family would never have been the wiser if someone hadn’t fouled up the paperwork and asked for a signature.
I guess what I’m suggesting is that dead bodies have more monetary value than sentimental value. Some family members might be more valuable to their family dead than alive. It’s crazy to think that’s where society has gone.
So, again, burial is indeed an option for at least someone, but… (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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Ramaloke
post Dec 21 2010, 05:46 AM
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If only because there is a *lack of uber bodies laying around.

*I still think that there would be a fair chance of finding said body.

Regardless, the combination would mean that a spirit is the perfect spy on the material. Gack some dude, possess his body, regenerate it and then waltz into his place of work.

The only big catch is the overall cost, you'd have to be an F8 free spirit to pull it off.
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Dahrken
post Dec 21 2010, 05:49 AM
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Keep in mind that unless you use Inhabitation rather than Possession, the spirit won't be able to use more than "basic", uncontrolled cyberware like Bone Lacing or stat boosts, but not stuff like cybersenses (eyes, ears, comlink...) and anything with DNI - yes this probably includes limbs.
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Yerameyahu
post Dec 21 2010, 05:51 AM
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Now, check this:
QUOTE (Runner's Companion p37)
Most obvious cyberlimbs are removed from an individual before burial or cremation, but Tamanous and other organizations, which perform such post-mortem modifications, can replace them with hollowed synthetic limbs.
--
It absolutely includes limbs, wires, anything good. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)
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Ramaloke
post Dec 21 2010, 05:57 AM
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Which brings up another idea (get ready to shake your head in munchkin horror)...


So regeneration on corpses puts the body "to rights" on what it would look like when alive, what about when the spirit leaves the body. Does this mean that you could say, harvest a heart, possess + regenerate + jump out, then harvest a heart etc etc etc. Seems like spirits could be organ factories. I mean, at a certain point you have to say "no, you cant just create matter from nothing," but by RAW, it seems to work. Silly, but presumably possible.

Secondly: Bodylegging Via Possession Spirits. It seems like an obvious way to make money, anybody have any idea what an average joe body is worth? More than binding materials for an appropriately strong possession spirit?
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Yerameyahu
post Dec 21 2010, 06:00 AM
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Honestly, I feel like those hearts probably aren't worth as much as the time of a powerful spirit. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Ditto second question.

Really, any 'money cheat' is to be struck down regardless of legality, anyway. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) It's fun to dream them up, but everyone knows you wouldn't use them. It's the same as 'why don't I just steal cars, or make drugs, or pirate BTLs/software…'.

Here's the fluff: Tamanous will come murder you. Done. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Don't forget, you're talking about *free* spirits.
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Ramaloke
post Dec 21 2010, 06:03 AM
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I dont know, it has more applications than just money-cheating.

Consider this: If you were to bind (or have bound) enough spirits to possess all the guys you would have killed anyway, you can just have them walk out of the "kill zone". Less evidence to inspect if they all just get up and leave. If you can make money at the same time, why not? Granted, it might become unbalanced, but you were going to "loot" the bodies if you had the chance anyway, why not get some moola for their body parts?

-edit-

For the regeneration, yes, free spirits are a must, for the bodylegging? Viable without free spirits, probably best without them actually.
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Yerameyahu
post Dec 21 2010, 06:04 AM
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Personally, I frown on extensive looting as well. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Hello, RFID/chem nanotaggants!

Yes, there are 'real' applications for possession, which is why it's in the game.
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Ramaloke
post Dec 21 2010, 06:06 AM
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Well, it seems to me that you cant have it both ways. If selling organs from the dead and dying (or even the perfectly healthy) is so common as to make burial unlikely and unpopular, if the setting is so dark, you cant really complain when your players do the same.

At the same time, do you really expect "body looting" to be an unpopular thing to be done? I know any ganger that kills a dude for *insert reason here* is going to see what he can make off the body. If there is cash money to be had, they'll do what they can to earn it as long as it doesn't put their ass in a sling.
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Yerameyahu
post Dec 21 2010, 06:11 AM
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I sure can. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) They're shadowrunners, they have jobs to do, and it's a game. While there are campaigns in which scavenging and looting is appropriate, it's honestly boring in the typical game. Either it's too much of a hassle to bother with (I didn't make up the taggants and nanotags, and selling bodies has its own issues), or it's too easy; the GM might as well just 'pay' them more and save everyone some time.

But we're not talking about that, which has been covered a lot in other threads. We're talking about money-cheating the universe and/or getting a super-vessel to make your crazy spirit even more godly. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
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Ramaloke
post Dec 21 2010, 06:14 AM
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Yep, they are shadowrunners, and they are probably the most likely to be able to make use of dead bodies than your average ganger. I mean, your players are the ones most likely to have a method of nulling RFID tags, and more likely to have contacts that could do what needs to be done and get them in touch with somebody who knows how to make a profit off the bodies usually laying in their wake.

As far as the supervessel thing, /meh, its probably best to find a living vessel anyway.
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Yerameyahu
post Dec 21 2010, 06:16 AM
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I agree: it's *possible*. The question is whether it's appropriate, fun, and above all, balanced. In each specific campaign, again; sometimes, the answer *is* 'yes'.
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