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> Reinforce-Spell on armor...possibe?
Machiavelli
post Dec 21 2010, 08:17 PM
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Just what the topic says...does this work?
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Yerameyahu
post Dec 21 2010, 09:05 PM
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Yes, but it doesn't do what you want it to. It makes the physical item hard to break, as a barrier. It doesn't increase the wearer's personal armor rating. Depending on the GM, this isn't worthless: hiding behind a wall *does* protect you, after all.
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Glyph
post Dec 22 2010, 04:00 AM
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It would also make the armor more rigid. At best, the increased armor would add to the encumbrance. At worst, you wouldn't be able to move in it.
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otakusensei
post Dec 22 2010, 04:08 AM
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QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Dec 21 2010, 04:05 PM) *
Yes, but it doesn't do what you want it to. It makes the physical item hard to break, as a barrier. It doesn't increase the wearer's personal armor rating. Depending on the GM, this isn't worthless: hiding behind a wall *does* protect you, after all.


It says it increases the Armor and Structure rating of an item. I understand that pretty clearly refers to barriers, but what would you consider the armor and structure of an armor vest? And wouldn't that vest offer more protection to anyone wearing it?

There's space for abuse, but this isn't like Mystic Armor. You still have a to figure out a way to move around in that armor.
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Seth
post Dec 22 2010, 07:21 AM
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My instant knee-jerk reaction to this is "absolutely not". The reinforce spell is pretty clearly about making objects more resistance to damage, where as the question wants the wearer of the armour to be more resistant to armour.

That said:
  • The armour spell is a sustained and adds to impact and ballistic armour, but doesn't add to encumbrance
  • I wouldn't object to a variation of the armour spell, that was sustained, and adds to impact and ballistic armour, and does add to encumbrance, for 1 drain code less
  • You could easily call that "reinforce armour", and it would probably be F/2+2 instead of the reinforces F/2+1.

I think that trying to limit it by "only when I am wearing armour" isn't much of a limitation (when are shadowrunners not wearing armour...I think some of mine try and wear it in the shower: or at least have ballistic shower curtains...paranoid??). You might be able to get another point of drain off though by restricting the maximum benefit to half the existing armour you cast it on (restricting it to value of the worn armour isn't much of a restriction, and this brings the spell in line with skill and attribute buffs).

This would give you:
QUOTE
Reinforce Armour(Physical)
Type: P • Range: LOS • Duration: S • DV: (F ÷ 2) + 1
This spell increases the ballistic and impact armour of armour. The maximum increase is half the value of armour that the target is already wearing.
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Machiavelli
post Dec 22 2010, 08:36 AM
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QUOTE (otakusensei @ Dec 22 2010, 05:08 AM) *
It says it increases the Armor and Structure rating of an item. I understand that pretty clearly refers to barriers, but what would you consider the armor and structure of an armor vest? And wouldn't that vest offer more protection to anyone wearing it?

There's space for abuse, but this isn't like Mystic Armor. You still have a to figure out a way to move around in that armor.
That is the point. The description says it "hardens" items and armor is an item. But it doesn not say that it makes it less flexible, more heavy etc. It doesn´t change the molecular structure and changes one material into another.

Edit: and by the way, if this would work, i am absolutely going to abuse this spell as much as i can. ^^
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Kronk2
post Dec 23 2010, 03:59 AM
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how hard would it be to write a spell that does what he wants by default? And could you use reinforce on another mage's barrier spell?
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Yerameyahu
post Dec 23 2010, 04:04 AM
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You mean, a version of Armor that can only be cast on worn armor? :/ It seems odd for the normal 'theme' of SR magic, but yeah? I feel like you'd just use the existing Armor spell.

Nope, it works on objects. Hmm. Are there any spells that work on spells in that fashion (modifying them)?
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Kronk2
post Dec 23 2010, 05:40 AM
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QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Dec 23 2010, 12:04 AM) *
You mean, a version of Armor that can only be cast on worn armor?

Yup. and can be made permanent besides
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KarmaInferno
post Dec 23 2010, 05:54 AM
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"Permanent" effects in Shadowrun are almost always the result of transforming one thing into another, then the magic going away.

Like you get healed, and then the magic fades but you stay healed. Or you get your clothes altered, then the magic fades but the clothes stay altered.

You will generally not see any sort of permanent spell that leaves behind an ongoing magic effect.

So, to be permanent, an armor-enhancing spell would have to actually alter the armor into something tougher. At which point you have to ask, "why not make armor out of that tougher stuff to begin with?"



-k
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Yerameyahu
post Dec 23 2010, 06:05 AM
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Yeah, the question is iffy enough before something crazy like, 'and permanent besides'. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) And without that, there's no reason not to just use the Armor spell already. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)
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Ragewind
post Dec 23 2010, 08:18 AM
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The Reinforce spell would indeed increase the armor value of a item (regardless of what item it is as long as it has a Armor value), however same thing as having a Spirit possess/inhabit said item would increase the encumbrance (due to the value hitting that magic number above bodyx2). Depending on your character this may not matter as much. RAW is friendly in this regrade allowing for the addition. Although as Yerameyahu correctly said (and i hate to say this) a plain Armor spell would be better, simply cast it a few times and let it stack up. Since it is a bonus magical in nature it would not count for encumbrance.

QUOTE
It would also make the armor more rigid

It doesn't actually do this, I'm not sure where you got it from. Fluffwise I suppose that would be correct but as per the mechanics this does nothing.

As for the sustaining there are plenty of options to keep it around depending on your resources.
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Yerameyahu
post Dec 23 2010, 03:05 PM
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Possibly, he meant that increasing Structure naturally makes things more rigid. It's a reasonable assumption, but it's probably true that Structure is more like 'toughness', so that some truly advanced material could have a high Structure *and* flexibility.
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Ragewind
post Dec 23 2010, 06:28 PM
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QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Dec 23 2010, 11:05 AM) *
Possibly, he meant that increasing Structure naturally makes things more rigid. It's a reasonable assumption, but it's probably true that Structure is more like 'toughness', so that some truly advanced material could have a high Structure *and* flexibility.


You are correct structure is just the objects condition moniter. A fancy way to say HP or LP, while it's true the more robust materials in the game have a high structure and are rather inflexible, the Reenforce spell does not actually do that. In this case you could have cotton and is harder than steel but still soft,warm, and flexible as normal cotton. Remeber IT'S MAGIC!
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pbangarth
post Dec 23 2010, 07:35 PM
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QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Dec 23 2010, 01:05 AM) *
Yeah, the question is iffy enough before something crazy like, 'and permanent besides'. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) And without that, there's no reason not to just use the Armor spell already. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

QUOTE (Ragewind @ Dec 23 2010, 03:18 AM) *
Although as Yerameyahu correctly said (and i hate to say this) a plain Armor spell would be better, simply cast it a few times and let it stack up. Since it is a bonus magical in nature it would not count for encumbrance.

One difference is that the armor spell puts a glowing aura around the subject, instantly marking him out from the others in his team and the surroundings. A reinforcement would not single him out that way.

Are you sure Armor spells can be stacked?
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Yerameyahu
post Dec 23 2010, 07:54 PM
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Ask Neraph. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) He has an argument that the RAW doesn't say they can't, basically. Personally, I use 'identical effects don't stack', but it's really a GM call. There is potential for abuse with the right 'tactics', but it's not too bad in 'normal' play. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Does Armor actually make you glow, and if so, why wouldn't Reinforce?
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pbangarth
post Dec 23 2010, 08:07 PM
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The armor spell description says, "This spell creates a glowing field of magical energy around the subject...". Reinforce doesn't say anything like that.
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Yerameyahu
post Dec 23 2010, 08:13 PM
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Cool, thanks. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I never use either, so I wasn't sure if it was a rule or what. Are there rules for how that 'glowing field' affects Perception tests?
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pbangarth
post Dec 23 2010, 08:18 PM
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I don't think there is anything that specifically mentions a visibility modifier for the armor spell, but ... some guy walking down a back alley at midnight, surrounded by a 'glowing field' has got to have a little trouble being sneaky.
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Ragewind
post Dec 23 2010, 08:40 PM
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QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Dec 23 2010, 03:54 PM) *
Ask Neraph. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) He has an argument that the RAW doesn't say they can't, basically. Personally, I use 'identical effects don't stack', but it's really a GM call. There is potential for abuse with the right 'tactics', but it's not too bad in 'normal' play. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Does Armor actually make you glow, and if so, why wouldn't Reinforce?



The main thing about that isthat Shadowrun is a game of addition/subtraction. The rules say each casting of the armor spell inreases your ballistic and impact armor by +X/+X. The rule you mentioned was a specific rule from dungeons and dragons and thus does not apply here.
Another part of Shadowrun is that the game will specifically tell you when something doesn't stack, not the otherway around. Take Trama Dampaners and a Platlet Factory as a good example. In some situations even though the plus or minus will be culmiative you might have a impractical situation where you can take multiple of something but you won't get any added benefit such as taking more than one pain editor.
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Yerameyahu
post Dec 23 2010, 08:50 PM
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Yes, but those are different effects stacking. You can't have 2 Trauma Dampers, yes? You can't have 2 bone lacings? I guess you could have two armor jackets, but can you have 2 helmets? What does 2 doses of a drug do? (Doesn't stack the bonuses.) Like that. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I like your Pain Editor example, but it's different: it's a non-numeric effect (and I wouldn't let someone get 2 of them anyway).

The rule I mentioned is a general rule for many games; if it's in D&D, good. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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Ragewind
post Dec 23 2010, 09:34 PM
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QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Dec 23 2010, 04:50 PM) *
Yes, but those are different effects stacking. You can't have 2 Trauma Dampers, yes? You can't have 2 bone lacings? I guess you could have two armor jackets, but can you have 2 helmets? What does 2 doses of a drug do? (Doesn't stack the bonuses.) Like that. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I like your Pain Editor example, but it's different: it's a non-numeric effect (and I wouldn't let someone get 2 of them anyway).

The rule I mentioned is a general rule for many games; if it's in D&D, good. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)


I don't have the time to answer all your examples but to touch upon one thing. Are you sure you cannot have 2 of every item you mentioned? Can you cite a page number or example?
That's exactly my point, if we are going by straight rules here, then the rules simply state you pay X amount of Nyuen and Essence and you get a Bone lacing effect. I'll take 3!
Obviously this is far fetched but unless your GM says no you have that option.
Touching upon my example let's replace the Pain Editor with Ruth poly Coat which gives a -4 to see the target, this item takes up only 1'capacity in armor and in a basic vest can get you -24 all together. It's the same situation in which the numbers will stack but getting there is strange, you could justify or condemnit in any number of ways but the basic mechanics allow for it.
Also while that is generally a good rule to go by no matter the game you still need to be aware that would be your houserule and not something that the game actually goes by.
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Yerameyahu
post Dec 23 2010, 09:37 PM
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I think you're making my point for me: you obviously *can't* have multiple Rutheniums, nor stack their bonus.

You have two options: assume that you can't have 2 muscle augmentations, 2 Wires-1s, 2 helmets, 2 ruthenium coatings (in which case the game functions as intended and as played), or you can say "the book doesn't say I can't" (in which case you have a moral victory and a broken game). (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) You can see how the latter is utterly insane.
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Seth
post Dec 23 2010, 09:41 PM
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QUOTE
I don't have the time to answer all your examples but to touch upon one thing. Are you sure you cannot have 2 of every item you mentioned? Can you cite a page number or example?
That's exactly my point, if we are going by straight rules here, then the rules simply state you pay X amount of Nyuen and Essence and you get a Bone lacing effect. I'll take 3!
Obviously this is far fetched but unless your GM says no you have that option.
Touching upon my example let's replace the Pain Editor with Ruth poly Coat which gives a -4 to see the target, this item takes up only 1'capacity in armor and in a basic vest can get you -24 all together. It's the same situation in which the numbers will stack but getting there is strange, you could justify or condemnit in any number of ways but the basic mechanics allow for it.
Also while that is generally a good rule to go by no matter the game you still need to be aware that would be your houserule and not something that the game actually goes by.


You're not seriously suggesting this are you??
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Mäx
post Dec 23 2010, 10:42 PM
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QUOTE (Seth @ Dec 23 2010, 11:41 PM) *
You're not seriously suggesting this are you??

Yes he is, thats just how he rolls (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool.gif)
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