IPB

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

2 Pages V   1 2 >  
Reply to this topicStart new topic
> Hot Sim Bonus?
SleepIncarnate
post Dec 22 2010, 12:30 AM
Post #1


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 956
Joined: 16-June 07
From: Like a coyote, always on the move
Member No.: 11,931



Ok, as pretty much everyone knows, you get a +2 bonus to all Matrix actions while in hot sim, but here's an odd question, what about PCs and NPCs that have no choice in the matter? I'm talking mostly AIs and sprites, which are always in the Matrix and always hot sim. Do you give it to them?

And what kinds of things do you apply it to with other things you don't? Obviously the basic stuff like using programs and the like, but what about threading? Fading? Social tests while in VR?

Edited Topic Title for spelling. ~F4.0

This post has been edited by fistandantilus4.0: Dec 22 2010, 05:07 AM
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Yerameyahu
post Dec 22 2010, 12:33 AM
Post #2


Advocatus Diaboli
**********

Group: Members
Posts: 13,994
Joined: 20-November 07
From: USA
Member No.: 14,282



They're not hot-sim or VR. They're digital natives.

The hot-sim bonus applies to Matrix tests (Matrix actions), which doesn't include social tests. I'm not positive about Technomancers, but I wouldn't think Threading (and the attendant Fading) would be *Matrix* tests. It's not accessing or manipulating any part of the Matrix. Compiling and Decompiling *are* Matrix tests, I'd say, because they're on the Matrix Actions list and they manipulate Matrix entities (even if it's in the bionode).

There are some actions specifically listed under Matrix Actions that don't necessarily involve (remote) Matrix access, but AFAIK none of those involve tests.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
WyldKnight
post Dec 22 2010, 12:35 AM
Post #3


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 540
Joined: 5-May 09
From: California
Member No.: 17,140



My group always played with Threading counting as a matrix test. Why wouldn't it count? For the record the dice didn't apply to the fading test, just the initial threading role.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Yerameyahu
post Dec 22 2010, 12:39 AM
Post #4


Advocatus Diaboli
**********

Group: Members
Posts: 13,994
Joined: 20-November 07
From: USA
Member No.: 14,282



I could see justifying Threading and still not allowing it on Fading, yeah. It depends on the GM; the rules aren't explicit. This is, of course, only for flesh and blood Technomancers, not Resonance entities or metasapients… or Pilots, agents, etc.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
WyldKnight
post Dec 22 2010, 12:54 AM
Post #5


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 540
Joined: 5-May 09
From: California
Member No.: 17,140



We always assumed they didn't get the bonus because of something on the hardware side.

As for the original topic we always limited matrix tests to stuff you could only do in the matrix. Stuff like social skills was definitely a no go. Do you have a TM trying this by threading empathy software to insane ranks and then trying to get an extra 2 dice out of your gm? For the record thats what I did, not the extra 2 dice mind you just the threading of empathy software to extra high ranks for an insane social dice pool.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Yerameyahu
post Dec 22 2010, 12:57 AM
Post #6


Advocatus Diaboli
**********

Group: Members
Posts: 13,994
Joined: 20-November 07
From: USA
Member No.: 14,282



Haha, as if it wasn't broken enough? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
WyldKnight
post Dec 22 2010, 01:05 AM
Post #7


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 540
Joined: 5-May 09
From: California
Member No.: 17,140



Good sir, nothing is ever broken enough (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

No, it becomes really broken when I use my rating 8 empathy software to score teamwork dice for the main face. And that's how you turn a non optimized face into a true social beast.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Raiki
post Dec 22 2010, 01:26 AM
Post #8


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 233
Joined: 27-September 10
From: New York
Member No.: 19,080



QUOTE (WyldKnight @ Dec 21 2010, 08:05 PM) *
Good sir, nothing is ever broken enough (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

No, it becomes really broken when I use my rating 8 empathy software to score teamwork dice for the main face. And that's how you turn a non optimized face into a true social beast.



That's funny...I thought you just handed him an Emotitoy and called it a day. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)




~R~
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Yerameyahu
post Dec 22 2010, 01:35 AM
Post #9


Advocatus Diaboli
**********

Group: Members
Posts: 13,994
Joined: 20-November 07
From: USA
Member No.: 14,282



Seriously. Direct +6 = done. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Saint Sithney
post Dec 22 2010, 01:42 AM
Post #10


Runner
******

Group: Members
Posts: 2,705
Joined: 5-October 09
From: You are in a clearing
Member No.: 17,722



I'm even kind of shy about giving TMs the +2 hotsim bonus.

Hotsim is supposed to cook a guys brain. We're talking about a threshold 4 addiction test to avoid progressively burning out to the point of essence loss and death. Not that anyone plays with hotsim addiction anyway...

But just giving that "I am killing myself to get an edge" bonus to everything on the trix makes it completely meaningless.

AIs, as written, have limited growth potential, but the solution to that isn't give them +2 to everything right from the start. Personally, I'd prefer a Matrix-fu style system of buildable bonuses and techniques paralleling the Martial Arts rules. That would be wizard.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Yerameyahu
post Dec 22 2010, 02:28 AM
Post #11


Advocatus Diaboli
**********

Group: Members
Posts: 13,994
Joined: 20-November 07
From: USA
Member No.: 14,282



Well, technically they're always in hot-sim for the purposes of biofeedback, which counts as *some* trade-off. I agree about the hot-sim addiction, but if anyone's a special case, it's Technomancers. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Teryn180
post Dec 22 2010, 02:50 AM
Post #12


Target
*

Group: Members
Posts: 63
Joined: 23-February 10
Member No.: 18,192



I really don't see any problem with Technomancers being addicted. When you live and breath something all your waking hours, not having it would make you more then a little twitchy.

Edit: Especially something of that close to reality.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Yerameyahu
post Dec 22 2010, 03:25 AM
Post #13


Advocatus Diaboli
**********

Group: Members
Posts: 13,994
Joined: 20-November 07
From: USA
Member No.: 14,282



Right, but they already have that. There's a 'no Matrix' penalty for them. Besides, they're literally never *not* in hot-sim, so there couldn't be a withdrawal or dose tolerance or anything. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
WyldKnight
post Dec 22 2010, 03:54 AM
Post #14


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 540
Joined: 5-May 09
From: California
Member No.: 17,140



QUOTE (Raiki @ Dec 21 2010, 05:26 PM) *
That's funny...I thought you just handed him an Emotitoy and called it a day. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)




~R~


Not when to run it he needs a high end comlink he can't afford. Saved him money by just running it myself.

Wasn't there a thread with some matrix fu stuff like martial arts not to long ago? I swear I read it.

EDIT: Yup here it is.

http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=31786

Not exactly what you were talking about I think but it's a good idea nonetheless.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Yerameyahu
post Dec 22 2010, 06:06 AM
Post #15


Advocatus Diaboli
**********

Group: Members
Posts: 13,994
Joined: 20-November 07
From: USA
Member No.: 14,282



the Emotitoy runs it. That's the whole reason it's broken. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
WyldKnight
post Dec 22 2010, 06:19 AM
Post #16


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 540
Joined: 5-May 09
From: California
Member No.: 17,140



ohhhh really? We don't use emotitoys. We just use the software on comlinks. We don't use them because the first time one of us tried our gm said the johnson sees the little toy and knowing exactly what it is tells you to put it away or the deal is off.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
ShadowWalker
post Dec 22 2010, 06:37 AM
Post #17


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 676
Joined: 11-June 10
From: Thunder Bay, ON, Canada
Member No.: 18,696



What I did with my Technomancer was to use the SimRig complex form, and the skinlink echo. I then taped a comlink, with the empathy software on it, to the lower back.
I use the SimRig complex form to pass along, sight, sound, touch, etc to the software on the comlink taped to the back. Hard for someone to see that I'm using empathy software when done this way.
Having the comlink taped to the back also allows for easy file copying as it's directly connected via the skinlink echo.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Seth
post Dec 22 2010, 07:09 AM
Post #18


Neophyte Runner
*****

Group: Members
Posts: 2,248
Joined: 14-October 10
Member No.: 19,113



QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Dec 22 2010, 02:28 AM) *
Well, technically they're always in hot-sim for the purposes of biofeedback, which counts as *some* trade-off. I agree about the hot-sim addiction, but if anyone's a special case, it's Technomancers. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Technomancers can reboot. So when they go to sleep, then can choose to disconnect. When they get knocked out they are automatically booted. It takes ages (multiple hours) for them to get back in. They can be in a faradays cage. So its not uncommon for the Technomancer in our game to be disconnected from the matrix.

That said, I agree with the sentiment of the quote: for Technomancers being connected to the Matrix in hot sim, is their natural state.

QUOTE
Well, technically they're always in hot-sim for the purposes of biofeedback, which counts as *some* trade-off

I find this a big enough down side: especially with the scare of psycho-tropic black IC.

To answer the original question:
  • I give anyone in hot sim the +2 bonus on matrix actions: Technomancers / Hackers / Riggers
  • I don't give the bonus to threading or threading drain
  • I don't think social tests are matrix tests.
  • Interestingly I don't give it to sprites. This wasn't a deliberate choice, it just didn't occur to me that they might get it.
  • I treat AIs as unfathomable primal powers of vast capability (very much like the fiction). I don't have a player AI
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Yerameyahu
post Dec 22 2010, 07:20 AM
Post #19


Advocatus Diaboli
**********

Group: Members
Posts: 13,994
Joined: 20-November 07
From: USA
Member No.: 14,282



Yeah, Seth. I know they can be disconnected; that's why the 'no matrix' penalty for them exists. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) However, hot-sim still counts as active in their bionode, just as you can be in hot-sim on your commlink. There's nothing much to see, but you're still *there* (AFAIK).

ShadowWalker, right. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) It works for hackers just as well, because they have high-end commlinks and real simrigs.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
CeeJay
post Dec 22 2010, 08:05 AM
Post #20


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 250
Joined: 16-January 09
From: Nowhere near you... unless you happen to be near Cologne.
Member No.: 16,776



QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Dec 22 2010, 08:20 AM) *
However, hot-sim still counts as active in their bionode, just as you can be in hot-sim on your commlink.

Wait a minute! There are two distinct ways to experience the matrix. One is through AR, where you just get an overlay of the matrix over the physical world. The other one is virtual reality, where the physical world gets replaced by the matrix. There are two levels of virtual reality: cold sim and hot sim, that mainly differ in the "intensity" of the virtual reality. TMs don't have a choice here, they must run VR in hot sim mode. If I'm not mistaken, running a 'link in VR still means, that you go limp, since you don't feel your physical body any more.

But of course, a TM can choose to turn VR off and experience the matrix via AR. In fact, most TM will do that most of the time, since everybody needs to interact with the physical world on some degree (unless you have a total immersion lifestyle).

So, TMs should get the +2 hot sim bonus just like everbody else who has the choice between VR and AR mode.

-CJ
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Brainpiercing7.6...
post Dec 22 2010, 10:14 AM
Post #21


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 873
Joined: 16-September 10
Member No.: 19,052



QUOTE (CeeJay @ Dec 22 2010, 09:05 AM) *
sical world on some degree (unless you have a total immersion lifestyle).

So, TMs should get the +2 hot sim bonus just like everbody else who has the choice between VR and AR mode.

-CJ


The funny thing is, even in AR technomancers are techincally "hot", since they take damage immediately.

But yeah, I would most definitely give them the bonus dice in VR. In AR... probably not. They just have to live with the risk and use their obscene program ratings to bypass the danger.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
CeeJay
post Dec 22 2010, 11:23 AM
Post #22


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 250
Joined: 16-January 09
From: Nowhere near you... unless you happen to be near Cologne.
Member No.: 16,776



QUOTE (Brainpiercing7.62mm @ Dec 22 2010, 11:14 AM) *
The funny thing is, even in AR technomancers are techincally "hot", since they take damage immediately.

Yupp, that's the price they have to pay for the ability to access the matrix without a commlink.

-CJ
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
LurkerOutThere
post Dec 22 2010, 03:31 PM
Post #23


Runner
******

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 2,946
Joined: 1-June 09
From: Omaha
Member No.: 17,234



For my part: If there is some risk increase to the character I give them the hotsim bonus, by this logic TM's and hotsim hackers (natch) pass but not sprites and AI's. If there is no increase in risk I do not (so no sprites or AI's). Now once we've established that baseline I'm very liberal with that bonus and give it for pretty much everything (including social tests and registering/compiling) because I firmly believe that if you take those risks you should net some rewards. Further I believe in the fluff that VR is a huge advantage (something that 4th ed seem to have done away with, can't have the Magicrun players be disapointed) and that hot sim is a further advantage over that. About the only thing I don't give it on is fading/damage resistance tests because it's counter intuitive.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Yerameyahu
post Dec 22 2010, 04:05 PM
Post #24


Advocatus Diaboli
**********

Group: Members
Posts: 13,994
Joined: 20-November 07
From: USA
Member No.: 14,282



I agree, CeeJay, but Brainpiercing pointed it out: they're always 'hot-sim vulnerable'. So I go by that, I guess? I dunno, I always kind of saw Technomancers as 'dual natured'. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
ShadowWalker
post Dec 22 2010, 05:31 PM
Post #25


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 676
Joined: 11-June 10
From: Thunder Bay, ON, Canada
Member No.: 18,696



The bonus is supposed to be for the list of matrix actions. If it's not a matrix action, and they are all listed between the SR4(a) and Unwired.
Threading is listed as a matrix action, resisting damage, or fading is not listed as a matrix action. Hot-sim is supposed to be more dangerous,
makes you closer to the hardware, and so taking damage should be more serious than if you are running cold-sim.
I don't see doing a social skill being something that should get the bonus, to me it just doesn't make sense on why you are all of a sudden better
at interacting with people. Skill at social interactions is not based on how fast you are at doing it, it's based on your ability to identify the persons
reactions, body language, etc. Speed has very little to do with how good you do.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post

2 Pages V   1 2 >
Reply to this topicStart new topic

 



RSS Lo-Fi Version Time is now: 21st May 2024 - 02:09 PM

Topps, Inc has sole ownership of the names, logo, artwork, marks, photographs, sounds, audio, video and/or any proprietary material used in connection with the game Shadowrun. Topps, Inc has granted permission to the Dumpshock Forums to use such names, logos, artwork, marks and/or any proprietary materials for promotional and informational purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not affiliated with the Dumpshock Forums in any official capacity whatsoever.