Counterspelling - just on characters? Options

[pbangarth]

I have always played Counterspelling as working just on characters, not on objects. The text in SR4A (p. 185) supports this usage.

But the description of the Shattershield spell in SM (p. 165) says the mana barrier resists with Force "+ Counterspelling (if anyone happens to be protecting it)." So in this one case in RAW, Counterspelling can be used on something other than a character.

Is this a generalizable usage? Protecting vehicles, drones, weapons, etc.? Warform hamsters? (Don't laugh. A warform hamster in the right situation could be as lethal as cutter nanites.)

[WyldKnight]

We always had it able to protect vehicles. Other wise what was stopping a mage from nuking the team getaway vehicle?

[Tanegar]

Although the text cited never explicitly says you can protect things other than people, it doesn't explicitly say you can't, either. It does explicitly mention Detection and Illusion spells as being counterable, which may or may not be targeted at a specific person. I would rule that any spell is counterable, regardless of target. The counterspelling magician is described as "actively jamming the mana around him," after all.

[Summerstorm]

Problem is: Counterspelling adds dice to tests... Objects don't get to resist.

The only time they would do anything is against indirect combat spells.

And spells and other "odity-objects"... are mostly not meant to be treated that way (and quickened spells already have their counter-spelling defense).

EDIT: Oh, and also i am for allowing to intercept spells again (using astral combat on their way to the target)... but since magic doesn't work that way anymore... oh well.

[CeeJay]

Problem is: Counterspelling adds dice to tests... Objects don't get to resist.

Easy way to fix that: Just roll counterspelling dice, objects don't add anything to that roll. Each hit substracts one hit from the spellcasting test as usual, if enough hits on the spellcasting test are left to meet object resistance threshold, the spell affects the object.

That's the way I would handle counterspelling on objects... but I'm not sure if that is really RAW.

-CJ

[Bombastic 451]

Problem is: Counterspelling adds dice to tests... Objects don't get to resist.

What about using counterspelling to raise the object's threshold? For example:+1 to threshold for every 2 points of counterspelling.

[Brainpiercing7.6...]

What about using counterspelling to raise the object's threshold? For example:+1 to threshold for every 2 points of counterspelling.

Huh? That's a rather strange relation... 3:1 is statistical, but I would rather raise OR with 4:1 - if at all.

[Ascalaphus]

I'm fairly liberal about counterspelling. A mage can protect objects (giving them dice, not additional OR). After all, I want that battle helicopter to have a sporting chance against the mage.

[Bombastic 451]

Huh? That's a rather strange relation... 3:1 is statistical, but I would rather raise OR with 4:1 - if at all.

Raising the threshold at standard 3:1 will result in only a +1 modifier or a +2 if you have maxed out your counterspelling to 6. 4:1 Would only allow a modifier of +1. Of course you could just roll the counterspelling and subtract the results from the opposing mage as the other guy said. I'm just suggesting this as a simpler option. Less math hurts my head less.

[pbangarth]

I kind of like the idea CeeJay has of using Counterspelling successes to reduce successes in the Spellcasting Test. It harkens back to earlier versions of Shadowrun in which there could be a 'battle of magicks', forces striving against each other until one finally overcomes the other, as you sometimes see depicted in film.

[Bombastic 451]

I kind of like the idea CeeJay has of using Counterspelling successes to reduce successes in the Spellcasting Test. It harkens back to earlier versions of Shadowrun in which there could be a 'battle of magicks', forces striving against each other until one finally overcomes the other, as you sometimes see depicted in film.

I've been meaning to ask you about that actually. Do you have any of your earlier edition cores? I'd like to look those rules over. The one thing CeeJay's suggestion that I was on the fence about is smaller dice pool for the counterspeller. That means a greater chance of glitching, though maybe that actually makes sense. If I just posted something stupid, just ignore it.

[pbangarth]

Any older core books I still have are in storage somewhere, either in Toronto or in Frosty Butt, Alberta (my friend's name for where I lived the last couple of years). I have 3rd edition for sure, and I think I still have the 2nd edition core book. First is long gone, and I think that is the version that most expressed what I was talking about.

[kzt]

We always had it able to protect vehicles. Other wise what was stopping a mage from nuking the team getaway vehicle?

Last I checked, Counterspell provides extra dice to a roll that inanimate objects don't get to make. Wards are also similarly pointless.

[kzt]

What about using counterspelling to raise the object's threshold? For example:+1 to threshold for every 2 points of counterspelling.

I've considered using 1:1 for wards. Never though about it for counterspell.

[pbangarth]

I've looked through some of the manuals, and find the best explanation, supported by all the examples I can find of explicit or implicit use of Counterspelling for characters and spells, to be in the Spellcasting "Step-by-step How To" on pages 182-184 of SR4A:

Spells cast on living or magic targets are often resisted, and an
Opposed Test is required. For area spells, the magician rolls only once,
and each target resists the spell separately. The target resists physical
spells with Body and mana spells with Willpower. If the target is also
protected by Counterspelling (p. 185), she may add Counterspelling
dice to this resistance test.

(emphasis mine)

This use on non-living targets is borne out explicitly, for example in the Shattershield spell description in SM which attacks a magical barrier, and implicitly in other spells such as Decrease Reflexes, which can be used against critters as well as characters.

So it appears to me that Counterspelling can be used to protect any living or magic target that gets a resistance roll against attack by a spell. I don't think it can be used to protect things that do not get a resistance roll, but only an Object Resistance. Furthermore, I don't think it can be used to protect against other kinds of magical attack, such as a spirit power, Astral Combat, or a Counterspelling attempt to bring down a sustained spell.

Too bad about that last one. It would be kind of cool to see two magicians duelling, Couterspelling the other's Counterspell until one fails.