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> Fan letter to CGL, Because we care
Kagetenshi
post Dec 28 2010, 10:46 PM
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No no, I dig, his manner of discussion in this matter has been very prone to causing escalation. I just want to distinguish that from being closed to discussion from the outset, which in my mind would be an entirely more serious category of issue.

~J
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hermit
post Dec 28 2010, 10:49 PM
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Fair enough. Yes, probably. But he is certainly not helping CGL's communiations problem here (and I vaguely remember this happened like this in the past already ... though not with Aaron).
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TheMadderHatter
post Dec 29 2010, 12:27 AM
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So is there an actual fan letter being worked on somewhere? I'd like to help with it, if there is.
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Acme
post Dec 29 2010, 06:04 AM
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I'd help if the letter was honestly about fixing problems and not just another "I hate 4th Ed" attempt. I'm getting tired of that. I've really stayed off of DS lately because of the pure bile.
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otakusensei
post Dec 29 2010, 06:09 AM
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QUOTE (TheMadderHatter @ Dec 28 2010, 07:27 PM) *
So is there an actual fan letter being worked on somewhere? I'd like to help with it, if there is.

Outside the steaming pile of hatred that has erupted across the internet or flooded every single thread that mentions this book?

Couldn't ask for a better message.

Seriously though, if someone can whip up a simple form letter basically taking the talking points and turning them into bullet points that would do it. Then everyone just print that bad boy out and send it on to Topps. CEOs like bullet points, avoid walls of text as they are easily confused and, like pokemon, will harm themselves in their confusion.

Considering the time frame on Topps having to decide on the license extension, War! couldn't broken out at a better time.
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Steven
post Dec 29 2010, 06:32 AM
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At this point, the only thing anyone could do to salvage this situation is for Catalyst to say, "hey, we fucked up and we're going to fix it. We're going to take all the feedback we've gotten and we're going to redo War!. Look for War! 2.0 by August 2011. If you downloaded War! as a PDF, we'll allow your to download War! 2.0 for free. If you have the hardcopy, cut the UPC off the back cover and send it in and we'll send you a hardcopy of War! 2.0. We promise this kind of a situation will never happen again."
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Acme
post Dec 29 2010, 06:35 AM
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Ah, I see otaku, so this IS about the end of Shadowrun as we know it.
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Medicineman
post Dec 29 2010, 07:37 AM
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QUOTE (Steven @ Dec 29 2010, 01:32 AM) *
At this point, the only thing anyone could do to salvage this situation is for Catalyst to say, "hey, we fucked up and we're going to fix it. We're going to take all the feedback we've gotten and we're going to redo War!. Look for War! 2.0 by August 2011. If you downloaded War! as a PDF, we'll allow your to download War! 2.0 for free. If you have the hardcopy, cut the UPC off the back cover and send it in and we'll send you a hardcopy of War! 2.0. We promise this kind of a situation will never happen again."

I'm sorry but thats Wishful thinking.It's not gonna happen

with a sad Dance
Medicineman
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TheMadderHatter
post Dec 29 2010, 07:49 AM
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I must agree. Speaking, admittedly, as an outsider to the world of RPG publishing (but as someone with too much experience with corporate inertia), it's not realistic to expect them to effectively stop sales of WAR! by promising a fixed product within a known timeframe, although errata might do a lot to mitigate the most problematic rules (like, say, submersible aircraft carriers without life support). There's simply no way anyone can sell the decision to sink a product like that. The best any amount of pressure could realistically do is exert an effect on books still far enough along in the future that changes can be made from the outset--and from Critias' posts, it sounds like there are internal forces acting in the right direction we might be successful at attempting to supplement, albeit distantly.

But I get ahead of myself. In the immediate sense, the book in front of us isn't going to change any more dramatically than can be accomplished with errata, and if there IS an updated version, it's not going to be available for free. There's simply no way to quantify the profits from improved esteem by the fanbase into anything that can compete with the loss of a product, and it's counterproductive to expect CGL to suddenly change priorities.
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hobgoblin
post Dec 29 2010, 08:21 AM
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QUOTE (otakusensei @ Dec 29 2010, 07:09 AM) *
Outside the steaming pile of hatred that has erupted across the internet or flooded every single thread that mentions this book?

Except that it can be traced back to a small group of people posting and linking the same things over and over.
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TheMadderHatter
post Dec 29 2010, 09:19 AM
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QUOTE (hobgoblin @ Dec 29 2010, 03:21 AM) *
Except that it can be traced back to a small group of people posting and linking the same things over and over.

Most of them from the same former SR4 freelancer who, iirc, has previously expressed a desire to end SR4 as a viable production, which on some level deserves bringing to the attention of everyone sucked in by his admittedly exciting rhetoric.
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hobgoblin
post Dec 29 2010, 09:22 AM
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QUOTE (TheMadderHatter @ Dec 29 2010, 10:19 AM) *
Most of them from the same former SR4 freelancer who, iirc, has previously expressed a desire to end SR4 as a viable production, which on some level deserves bringing to the attention of everyone sucked in by his admittedly exciting rhetoric.

and that makes me wonder how this game got to be so personal for some...
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Cain
post Dec 29 2010, 09:38 AM
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QUOTE (otakusensei @ Dec 28 2010, 10:09 PM) *
Considering the time frame on Topps having to decide on the license extension, War! couldn't broken out at a better time.

Speaking of which, do you know how much longer CGL has on the license extension?
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hermit
post Dec 29 2010, 09:41 AM
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It's up for renewal sometime in January, I believe.
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ravensmuse
post Dec 29 2010, 01:02 PM
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It would be nice to pass off all of this as the work of a few grumpy souls and leave it at that, but that's not what's going on here. What is going on here is a systematic abuse of what was once a decently oiled machine.

I think you'll find among the "complainers" that there was a wide range of complaints about previous 4e material. Many of those people have said as much over the grand schema of this "saga". Try looking at say, Cain's posts, and otakusensei's, and Kagetenshi is pretty upfront about his own love for 3e.

The even better part is that there's this thought that the all-seeing, mysterious "Cult of Frank / AH" is behind this - and while I'll admit to being personally upset over the loss of Bobby Derie because of his work here and his work for CGL, it's just a symptom of a much larger disease. Frank? Couldn't give less of a toss. The guy is who he is, a loud, arrogant blowhard that got into fights with everyone with an official tag on Dumpshock. But he had connections, and he had nothing to lose, so he posted stuff that pretty much damned the whole company.

Look, for those of you that think we're just being whiny crybabies: here is a summary of events that go back all the way to last April, to see what CGL - specifically Loren L. Coleman, Randall Bills, and Jason Hardy - has been doing to this company, and then look at what War! and other products post-SR4A have come out looking like. Then, ask yourself: do they really care about SR or its players? Or do they simply care to milk a license while praying Topps doesn't come down on them?

(And yes, that's an AH summary. Suck it up, read whatever bias you want into it, but pay attention.)

There are legitimate complaints about both product and company being discussed here, and passing it off as the work of unsatisfied 4e haters, or some cult of personality, is really allowing the terrorists to win. Or something.

(Tongue firmly in cheek, of course)
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Blade
post Dec 29 2010, 01:28 PM
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Yes a fan letter is being worked on somewhere (I'm sorry I can't give you more details right now, but you'll be told everything as soon as the letter is ready) and I'll let you know when it's ready to be signed and sent, which should happen soon.

It won't be a "I hate SR4/SR4A/CGL letter" it will be a polite letter from concerned fans who have been disappointed by the drop of quality and would like things to get better so that they can keep on buying books.
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sabs
post Dec 29 2010, 01:40 PM
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I've been pretty vocal about my dissatisfaction with the last couple of products..

And yes, I happen to like AH's writing and what I can tell is his understanding of the overall Shadowrun Metaplot. Frank? I hadn't heard of him until 3 days ago. I will say, his writing style is funny, and engrossing. He's clearly an obnoxious blowhard, but sadly.. he's right in his assessment of how bad War! is.

So calling us a bunch of Cultists is really missing the point.
War is bad.. and I'm not sure how anyone can defend it as a whole.
I'm not even so much upset about screwed up Slow spell.. We've had plenty of screwed up stuff in this edition and previous editions. It's not like it's new.

I'm upset because War! has nothing to do with War! It's badly organized, edited, and plotted out.
It shows a complete lack of understanding of the Shadowrun world.

And /that/ is worrisome.
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Acme
post Dec 29 2010, 01:50 PM
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I can't defend the book, because I'm waiting for it to come out in hardback to make my own opinion. I've long ago ignored DS as a stable review platform since I personally liked Sixth World Almanac even though people were saying it was the worst thing on sliced toast.

Though Blade, I would hope that before collecting signatures, you (or whoever is behind it) will allow people interested in it the chance to read it before collecting signatures.
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Sengir
post Dec 29 2010, 02:08 PM
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QUOTE (hermit @ Dec 28 2010, 10:52 PM) *
I do not do this lightly, believe me.

Actually, you didn't do it at all first. Then came Sait Frank, patron saint of cursing sailors, and decreed the author had obvious Nazi sympathies and not just poor taste...

And as far as the antiziganism thing is concerned, how many reports about antiziganism in Eastern Europe did you see in recent weeks? Most people are not even aware of it, how do you expect them to ship around cliffs they don't see?
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Blade
post Dec 29 2010, 02:09 PM
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QUOTE (Acme @ Dec 29 2010, 02:50 PM) *
Though Blade, I would hope that before collecting signatures, you (or whoever is behind it) will allow people interested in it the chance to read it before collecting signatures.


Of course, though we can't let too much time pass between the time the letter is made public and the time it is sent but I guess we'll have an unsigned written version (companies and individuals pay more attention to written letters than to e-mails) and a signed version online (to show the support it has).
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nezumi
post Dec 29 2010, 02:31 PM
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Might I recommend, if you want maximum impact, to send multiple letters. Nothing big. It's numbers that count. Something quick like:

To Whom it May Concern,

I am a dedicated Shadowrun fan and have been following the game for X years. I am concerned that some of the recent products have not met the standards of quality of the Shadowrun line, and I am worried about the quality of future products. What quality should I expect in future products, and what changes are being made to ensure that?

Thank you for your time and consideration,
So-and-so
so-and-so@heartshadowrun.com


That's it. Be polite, express your concerns, leave the power in their hands. The threat is already implied, and the information on what needs changing is available, if they're going to honestly look for it. If someone has a professional, legitimate listing of issues and concerns somewhere, you can link to it, but it MUST BE professional or your argument loses all weight.

E-mail it to CGL or Topps, or better yet, snail mail it. Calling on the phone might be a bit much - these aren't your congresspeople.
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Doc Chase
post Dec 29 2010, 02:31 PM
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QUOTE (hermit @ Dec 28 2010, 11:15 PM) *
That other run discussed somewhere, about the sylvestrines wanting to release angry ghosts, crossfire and different factions being after Wirtz' pen, and the ending scene with the Mexican standoff and the remaining Sylvestrine killing herself by releasing them in the required ritual? Yes. That's actually a very good idea. It does not treat 1.1 million dead as some sort of Forbidden Tomb in the Eye of Terror where you go to loot Bile's Scalpel, it treats the whole matter sensitively enough and makes for a great story if it works as a run. Just to show Auschwitz can be used and not piss off anyone if done right.


It might not be in the Holiday stockings, but I plan on making and posting an entire arc for folks to use as they see fit. I think I've got the background down on it, why they popped the shield over the area since the Awakening, and the consequences of the talislegger shattering the wards. Just need a hair more research (and a map, maps are wonderful) and I think I can buckle down and make the magic happen.

Only real kicker for a setup like this is the relative lack of things for Hackers/TM's to do if they're not dronomancing, but I think I'll throw the module up for a beta when I hit that point and see what folks have to say.
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hermit
post Dec 29 2010, 02:43 PM
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QUOTE
And as far as the antiziganism thing is concerned, how many reports about antiziganism in Eastern Europe did you see in recent weeks? Most people are not even aware of it, how do you expect them to ship around cliffs they don't see?

Lots, given how SPIEGEL and other media in Germany covered Sarco's latest attempt to lash out at a minority that'S not overly popular. And a number before. But yes, it may not be very much known to Americans. However, the article explicitly details that there is loads of Antiziganism in Marienbad, before coming up with hey, let's start a progrom.

And yes, you posted that first. Forgotten that.

QUOTE
It might not be in the Holiday stockings, but I plan on making and posting an entire arc for folks to use as they see fit. I think I've got the background down on it, why they popped the shield over the area since the Awakening, and the consequences of the talislegger shattering the wards. Just need a hair more research (and a map, maps are wonderful) and I think I can buckle down and make the magic happen.

Only real kicker for a setup like this is the relative lack of things for Hackers/TM's to do if they're not dronomancing, but I think I'll throw the module up for a beta when I hit that point and see what folks have to say.

It's surely a magic heavy module, but recon drones are harder for spirits to destroy. Other than that ... they do what everyone else does: babysit.
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Aaron
post Dec 29 2010, 03:08 PM
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QUOTE (Cthulhudreams @ Dec 27 2010, 06:58 AM) *
A number of developers post on this forum, like Aaron. It would be interesting to get his input.

Aaron is not a developer, at least not for Shadowrun. Aaron is a freelancer. When it comes to CGL's take on stuff, I have no input. I'm not in the loop, even a little bit (<-- good quote for flaming me, here). Anything I would be able to contribute would be hearsay at best.

I write to the specifications I'm given, and my work is for hire, which means it's no longer mine and can be changed after I submit it. As a work-for-hire, CGL doesn't even need to acknowledge that I wrote it, but in this industry that's considered rude. Sadly, it also means that I take some criticism for decisions that aren't mine; I've been taking it because I find it unprofessional to point at CGL and say, "It was them, not me! Let's get 'em! Yeaaaarrrgh!" =i)

Sorry for the late post, and I don't mean to interrupt the flaming. Here, let me help: if you want to kill me in effigy, I suggest the card game, Let's Kill. We originally put me in there as a victim card, and it stayed in for Atlas's second edition, so if you want to take a cheese grater to my face without all that annoying prosecution by law enforcement, that's the way to do it. =i)

EDITED to add some much-needed smiley faces. Apparently, I came across to heavy-handed (thanks, Doc, for pointing that out).
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hermit
post Dec 29 2010, 03:22 PM
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Thanks for the input.
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