Fan letter to CGL, Because we care Options

[sabs]

I have no problems with any of the writers.
It would be like blaming Natalie Portman for Star Wars 1-3.

The line developer sets the required research, the mood for a book. Especially one drawn together from so many writing sources.

It is clear though, that noone asked most of the writers to do anything other than basic research. That most of the writers were not given access to a wiki with a solid metaplot summary, so far on buffy kind of thing.

And when some of the writers wrote stuff that did not fit, or was, possibly ill advised. Noone said, "we can't use this.. because of X.. you got a week to give us something different."

The slow spell, is just.. one of those the wording and the intent of the spell don't quite mesh. We've had that for years. I mean for heaven's sake.. AH brought us the Super-Ghoul Virus, messed up karma Gen, and Free Spirit PCs of "wait what" and he's otherwise a fine author and usually half-way decent rules writer


What bothers me isn't the creeping mondo ism, it's the creeping mondoism that shows a complete lack of understanding of the Shadowrun Universe.

But what troubles me the most about War! is that fundementally it has nothing to do with War.

PS

Hermit.. I think you should take a couple of days from posting in these threads (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
You're way too upset.

[Semerkhet]

Hermit.. I think you should take a couple of days from posting in these threads (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
You're way too upset.

Agreed. I know you claim Aaron told you in PMs that he was perfect and you were retarded for questioning him. If true, that's pretty shitty. Still, if that's how you're going to respond to Aaron's jokingly self-deprecating post then you should probably just put him on Ignore and be done with it.

Of course, I expect there to be warnings and possibly thread-locking once a Mod has their coffee.

[sabs]

I thought the thread locking threads usually came /before/ the coffee (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Method]

Hermit and Aaron: both of you need to change the tone of your posts. The two of you going after each other is not adding anything productive to this effort.

And for the record I don't drink coffee.

[Stahlseele]

coffee is vile stuff

[Semerkhet]

coffee is vile stuff

So were beer and Scotch before I drank enough to develop a taste for them. I'm not saying this is rational but it is funny that my three favorite beverages were ones that I found revolting when I first tried them.

[Doc Chase]

Still, if that's how you're going to respond to Aaron's jokingly self-deprecating post

There's a line somewhere between self depreciation and 'high dudgeon', and it gets blurry.

I appreciate that Aaron's a freelancer, and that he's contributed, and that he's responding. However, I don't know Aaron from Adam (not you Adam, I'm trying to drag as few people as possible into this) and Aaron has seemed to be stepping into 'high dudgeon' to me in his responses. I suppose it's a question of decorum and, in a sense, poor word choice.

Were it me in Aaron's shoes, references to being flamed, hated, and suggestion about cheese graters in card games to a passel of folk who are already well above room temperature would be a very bad idea. Word choice on a forum can infer a great deal of unintended emotional response. There's nuance to be had, and perception is limited because we're all just words and smiley faces on a screen to one another. As such, I can see Hermit's bias and understand it PM's notwithstanding. I think the both of you need to stop goading one another, but that's just me. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

Aaron's response in the other War! thread regarding nomenclature was a very good one, self deprecation aside, and I'm quite happy finding out that the people who have worked on this latest entry into canon are looking seriously at what we have to say - or some of what we have to say, at least. Critias' continued responses as a fan and freelancer and moderate voice are also very good ones - for someone who doesn't really have a dog in this fight, he's at least trying to take the community's concerns and (perhaps in a futile attempt) get us as a community to constructively criticise. I can get behind that. That's why I posted a basic critique on the SR4 boards upon seeing the suggestion.

Praise for current responders aside, the heat in these threads stems from an endemic problem: This isn't the first time we as fans have seen this. I personally as a fan have now been fooled twice: Once with 6WA's layout errors, and again with War!'s much more pervasive errorset. As the saying goes, shame on me - I fell for it again. Can you see why we might be mad? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

Shadowrun is blessed with one hard core fanbase. It is cursed with the same - we are a fickle beast who wants regular and good releases which can be difficult to pull off, and we rage easily. What we crave more than anything else, however, is communication. When we are people and not credit card numbers, beings and not bank accounts, chummers and not credsticks, then we can forgive. When we know that a release is being pushed back to ensure that everything is done right, we acknowledge and appreciate it. When we get a "mea culpa, something happened but it shouldn't again" from those in control, then we reinforce the belief that there is a commitment to quality product. This belief is waning. For some, it has disappeared outright.

[Draco18s]

E-mail it to CGL or Topps, or better yet, snail mail it. Calling on the phone might be a bit much - these aren't your congresspeople.

United States (Headquarters)

Topps US
One Whitehall Street
New York, NY 10004
Tel: 212-376-0300
(Consumer Relations) Tel: (+1) 800-489-9149
Fax: 212-376-0573

[Method]

Shadowrun is blessed with one hard core fanbase. It is cursed with the same - we are a fickle beast who wants regular and good releases which can be difficult to pull off, and we rage easily. What we crave more than anything else, however, is communication. When we are people and not credit card numbers, beings and not bank accounts, chummers and not credsticks, then we can forgive. When we know that a release is being pushed back to ensure that everything is done right, we acknowledge and appreciate it. When we get a "mea culpa, something happened but it shouldn't again" from those in control, then we reinforce the belief that there is a commitment to quality product. This belief is waning. For some, it has disappeared outright.

Very well said. This community used to enjoy considerable patronage from the people who make this game. I don't know of any other RPG fan community that had that kind of direct access we used to have to the developers. Hell, most of the people responsible for SR4 (some of the best SR ever produced in my opinion) came straight out of this community. Now between the official forums, a turnover in staff and outright vitriol from some in this community we can barely get anyone associated with the current production process to post here. People bitch about "post editing" and "censorship" on the official forum and then they come here and shit where they eat. I'm all for open discussion, objective constructive criticism and DS remaining an independent fan community for SR, but all this drama is just marginalizing us even more. If we want to have any voice in this we need to come the table with adult attitudes and constructive criticism. Otherwise we might as well just move on to other games because SR isn't going to be what we want it to ever again.

[Sengir]

Lots, given how SPIEGEL and other media in Germany covered Sarco's latest attempt to lash out at a minority that'S not overly popular. And a number before. But yes, it may not be very much known to Americans. However, the article explicitly details that there is loads of Antiziganism in Marienbad, before coming up with hey, let's start a progrom.

France is not in Eastern Europe. And let's face it, the knowledge most people over here have of anything east of the Oder is "here be dragons. And our stolen stuff". Any knowledge of the ethnic frictions over there is extremely limited at best, and I doubt it's better across the pond.

And yes, you posted that first. Forgotten that.

I didn't, and it wasn't my point. My point was that at first you considered the story as merely tasteless and a sign of sloppy research. Then Frank claimed the writer was some sort of Nazi sympathizer, and you immediately picked it up as the new party line.

[sabs]

Honestly, I'd be surprised if most American knew who Gypsies were.. other than.. "those mystical charlatan guys right? with the hot belly dancer girls?"

[Semerkhet]

Honestly, I'd be surprised if most American knew who Gypsies were.. other than.. "those mystical charlatan guys right? with the hot belly dancer girls?"

On the Venn diagram of world cultural knowledge, the overlap between "most Americans" and "gamers" is not 100%. In my experience anyway.

[sabs]

I would expect gamers to know about Gypsies, it's true.
I mean, Didn't we all play WoD at some point?

Knowing that the French Gov is being a right dick about Gypsies right now? that's more specialized knowledge.
And really, it makes perfect sense in Shadowrun.
Look at Yomi Island, and the Native American Death Camps.

[Kagetenshi]

Most of them from the same former SR4 freelancer who, iirc, has previously expressed a desire to end SR4 as a viable production, which on some level deserves bringing to the attention of everyone sucked in by his admittedly exciting rhetoric.

If you're talking about Frank, he's an SR4 partisan through-and-through—see his repeated trumpeting of the fixed-TN system as the best thing since sliced bread back near SR4's release, for example, or his elaborate attempt to salvage the concept of the SR4 Matrix. I've seen him make reference to wanting to cause CGL to lose the license, but always in the context of causing someone else to pick it up, and in the posts I've seen he usually follows with a note to the effect that they just need to keep the bulk of the SR4 ruleset and they'll be fine, IIRC.

If you're looking for someone who wants to end SR4 as a viable production, that would be me. You don't see much activity towards that goal, though, since SR4 itself apparently didn't do the job and I'm at a loss for any way to do it better.

~J

[Aaron]

Were it me in Aaron's shoes, references to being flamed, hated, and suggestion about cheese graters in card games to a passel of folk who are already well above room temperature would be a very bad idea. Word choice on a forum can infer a great deal of unintended emotional response. There's nuance to be had, and perception is limited because we're all just words and smiley faces on a screen to one another. As such, I can see Hermit's bias and understand it PM's notwithstanding. I think the both of you need to stop goading one another, but that's just me. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

Previous post edited to add smiley faces where they were needed. I'm not mad, nor deliberately trying to provoke anyone or anything. The cheese grater and killing in effigy is true, though: it's a real card game with really an Aaron card and really a Cheese Grater weapon card.

Apologies for raising the temperature. I like answering questions, so I'll pretty much answer any question directed at me as sincerely as I can. I also hate smileys, but I seem to be wrong about not needing them.

I'm also just following the "if you can't beat 'em join 'em" philosophy. Let's face it, I can't win on DSF; I'm not sure anybody can. Plus, it turns out that making fun of myself is fun. =i) I know all sorts of facts I can ridicule myself for (for example, I once told a room full of children that I like babies because they are nutritious =i). That's not even mentioning all of the Very Bad Rules I actually have come up with (and beat myself up for regularly).

Anyway, to drag this back on topic, if I was to contribute to a fan letter to CGL, I would have to include hiring Echo Chernik to do covers as a Good Idea. I'd also ask for more support for Missions, although to be fair living games are hard to maintain (even the Wicked Wizard of the Pacific Northwest is cutting back on the RPGA games).

[Doc Chase]

Previous post edited to add smiley faces where they were needed. I'm not mad, nor deliberately trying to provoke anyone or anything. The cheese grater and killing in effigy is true, though: it's a real card game with really an Aaron card and really a Cheese Grater weapon card.

I've seen stranger - I believe you. And thank you for emphasizing that you're having fun, and not going into high dudgeon. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Apologies for raising the temperature. I like answering questions, so I'll pretty much answer any question directed at me as sincerely as I can. I also hate smileys, but I seem to be wrong about not needing them.

A lot of folks say you can't understand the emotions of people on the internet. I happen to disagree with it, but one does need to amp up the sarcasm from 'drip' to 'deluge' at times.

I'm also just following the "if you can't beat 'em join 'em" philosophy. Let's face it, I can't win on DSF; I'm not sure anybody can. Plus, it turns out that making fun of myself is fun. =i) I know all sorts of facts I can ridicule myself for (for example, I once told a room full of children that I like babies because they are nutritious =i). That's not even mentioning all of the Very Bad Rules I actually have come up with (and beat myself up for regularly).

I wouldn't say that. I thought you did very well in the other thread, justifying the names selected and acknowledging where there were mistakes. Looking at it, I could see where Shadowtalkers commenting on the Glucke or the Dunkelzahn would mirror the posts and responses given. Which would both be pretty sweet to have seen and would've probably cut down a bit on that thread, too. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

Anyway, to drag this back on topic, if I was to contribute to a fan letter to CGL, I would have to include hiring Echo Chernik to do covers as a Good Idea. I'd also ask for more support for Missions, although to be fair living games are hard to maintain (even the Wicked Wizard of the Pacific Northwest is cutting back on the RPGA games).

Good to mention. The covers have been quite nice - though I'm not terribly sure about 6WA's. Still on the fence about it.

[Steven]

I'm sorry but thats Wishful thinking.It's not gonna happen

with a sad Dance
Medicineman

Oh, I know it will never happen, but it would be the nice thing to do. I know no company like Catalyst, or any other game company for that matter, would say "our product really was subpar and we're going to fix it." or "our product didn't work and we'll refund your money." The way it is now, you pay your money, you get a product of questionable use and quality, and the cycle repeats itself.

It they'd at least put out revised (and workable) information for the wonky spells and equipment online that would be something. "Hey, Slow as written doesn't really work as intended. Here's a revised version that we think works better." "The monofilament grenade was missing information about how long the monofilaments stay in the environment. They break down as soon as the current turn is over. Hope this helps." Something.

[Kagetenshi]

"The monofilament grenade was missing information about how long the monofilaments stay in the environment. They break down as soon as the current turn is over. Hope this helps." Something.

That doesn't actually make sense, though. If they're so volatile, why did they survive the initial explosion?

~J

[Doc Chase]

That doesn't actually make sense, though. If they're so volatile, why did they survive the initial explosion?

~J

What if the grenade was more like a Bouncing Betty?

Maybe it's like this spool of monofilament that's kinda like a spool from a weed-eater - and it has a little gyro and motor in it. You toss this thing, it pops up onto the end like a top, bounces up and starts to spin. Monowire comes out two ends and extends from the spin force until the little battery runs out, and you have this little helicopter rotor of deforestation and death. Once the thing stops spinning, what wire is left gets sucked back into the unit and it goes inert.

What if it worked like that?

[Kagetenshi]

Then that would be a necessary additional piece of information, and the "breaks down" theory still makes no sense without it. Can someone post or summarize the weapon description? Does it admit such an interpretation?

~J

[TheMadderHatter]

It could also be coated in oxygen-activated monofilament-shredding nanites bonded to the filament's surface.

As far as the description goes, it just says it has hundreds of meters of the wire around an exploding core, and that it gets blown into several pieces on detonation.

[Semerkhet]

It could also be coated in oxygen-activated monofilament-shredding nanites bonded to the filament's surface.

That's what I like/hate about nanotechnology and nanites in particular. They're kind of like magic in that you can handwave just about anything only this time it's under the auspices of Science!!! "Any sufficiently advanced technology..." and all that.

[Draco18s]

It could also be coated in oxygen-activated monofilament-shredding nanites bonded to the filament's surface.

But why? Why would any company make a grenade that could be re-used (with a new battery) destroy an expesive and vital component like that (by using Yet Another Expensive Component)?

[Medicineman]

Ähhhmmmm,,well,sorry but we're a little bit offtopic right now (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

HokaHey
Medicineman

[nezumi]

I would recommend discussions regarding grenades, seamen, et al. be moved to other threads. Some people on Dumpshock are taking a go at being productive for a change (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

And to give my post some actual value, here is the address for CGL:
Catalyst Game Labs
PMB 202
303 91st Ave NE, E-502
Lake Stevens, WA 98258

IMO, I would be more inclined to write to CGL than Topps. I have NO knowledge of the industry, but it would seem that talking to Topps (and thereby implying a revocation of the license) is closer to the atomic option. If someone else gets the license, we're most likely looking at Rigger 4, followed immediately by 5th edition.