Fan letter to CGL, Because we care Options

[Kagetenshi]

So before any of the "new" product (in terms of what seems to be the common parlance here, that WAR! is the first book developed after all the freelancer changes*) came out the company was going to convince folks that have continued to show an outright hostility that things had changed? That they would be won back before there was even this new product to look at, without the baggage and bias they've publicly proclaimed time and again? That's a heck of an awesome mental manipulation spell. Where does my mage get one?

Mistakes were made, that's been clear. I'm not quite sure how that factors into a prescient way to wave your fingers and say "all fans are now happy forevermore."

Er, no. What I mean is, that was their opportunity to not put out a book filled with editing problems, and by extension not have people all upset that the book is filled with editing problems. Alternatively, it was their opportunity to realize that their process was creating books filled with editing problems, and have begun to modify their process without needing to be spurred by public outcry.

If your assertion genuinely is that they would need to have looked into the future to have found that the book was insufficiently proofread, well, I don't think there's a coherent conversation that can be had here.

~J

[otakusensei]

CGL doesn't have to convince anyone of anything to make this go away and bring back the halcyon days that we all used to complain about in the halcyon days of the forum. All they have to do is put out a quality product, and that will do all the work for them.

That is a completely honest statement by someone who has made it his goal to point out as much as possible the situation at CGL. They just need to meet my personally stated level of quality, SR4A.

[hermit]

A third author has popped up on the official forums apparently, and aside from still not realising Bogotá, despite being a city in South America, really is not surrounded by Jungle and actually very elevated and mountainous, promises he noticed fans being angry about grammar and spelling errors galore, and thus now, being already an accomplished writer but also willing to learn, he will try to make the best writing he can produce even better by paying more attention to grammar. Seriously. Isn't having mastered the language, grammar included, a basic skill among writers? Or at least, shouldn't it be?

It's like an airplane engineer saying "so I noticed that many users of my planes are unhappy about them exploding in midair, so in the future I'll design my planes so they don't regularily spontaneously explode, to make the best planes I can design even better".

I'm undecided if this is hilarious or sad, really.

I know, I know, snide comment, but really, I hope this is not what Critas was referring to when he meant that there were things happening in CGL. And really, CGL needs someone not totally incompetent at communication to communicate for the. But even more, CGL needs to produce something that isn't so totally damnable as War! is.

[sabs]

You think it would be tacky to send CGL a world atlas with elevations and topography?

[Draco18s]

You think it would be tacky to send CGL a world atlas with elevations and topography?

Yes.

[Adarael]

Meh, Bogota is surrounded by rainforest in Shadowrun, sure. It's pretty well established that after Amazonia worked their rituals to re-grow the forests, it got out of hand and kind of engulfed the entire damn upper portion of the continent, to the point where they had to burn it back from the cities in contravention of their tree-love. I forget what book that was in precisely, but I believe it was Fields of Fire?

So saying "OMG Bogota is a jungle!" doesn't surprise me terribly. No, it's not a jungle now. But there's also no awakened nation *causing* it to be surrounded by rainforest now. So that's hardly an issue, especially when compared to "Why the fuck do we care about Bogota at all?"

[otakusensei]

Meh, Bogota is surrounded by rainforest in Shadowrun, sure. It's pretty well established that after Amazonia worked their rituals to re-grow the forests, it got out of hand and kind of engulfed the entire damn upper portion of the continent, to the point where they had to burn it back from the cities in contravention of their tree-love. I forget what book that was in precisely, but I believe it was Fields of Fire?

So saying "OMG Bogota is a jungle!" doesn't surprise me terribly. No, it's not a jungle now. But there's also no awakened nation *causing* it to be surrounded by rainforest now. So that's hardly an issue, especially when compared to "Why the fuck do we care about Bogota at all?"

I wondered about this as well. But unless the magic that grew those forests is on the a level many times larger than the one that maintains the barrier around Tir Na nOg, it's going to have trouble maintaining that much jungle that close to the city. I might be reading the terrain and sat images wrong though, and we're assuming that Bogota is in the same place as there has been no mention that it was moved for whatever reason.

http://goo.gl/maps/jw57

[Adarael]

Well, in the same passages it was talking about how the jungle was so awakened that the elevation of various areas in Amazonia were changing by several hundred feet over the space of a month or two, with the implication rivers changed places as well. The shadowtalk indicating mapping software went out of date every two to three months, because the landscape was so changed it wasn't recognizable. Given that level of magical power, I have little problem assuming the general laws of forest growth have been subverted to hell and back.

[sabs]

even if it was rain forest..

it's rain forest at 2 miles elevation through super cragy mountainous area.

It's.. not the same as the basin.

[otakusensei]

even if it was rain forest..

it's rain forest at 2 miles elevation through super cragy mountainous area.

It's.. not the same as the basin.

Yeah but he's saying that if there were physical changes to the terrain the area may be basin now. At some point someone said "It's magic!" and since War! doesn't have a map we have to take their word for it.

Unless the map in 6WA has elevation indication. Or a book between War! and the growth of the rainforest has one.

[Kagetenshi]

You think it would be tacky to send CGL a world atlas with elevations and topography?

They're just continuing the tradition FanPro started with some not-lowlands in California abruptly dropping into the sea in the SR4 core book.

~J

[Adarael]

Exactly that kind of shit. Eventually, even *I* have to give up and say "Augh, it's fucking magic or something."

[sabs]

I'm still 1/2 of the opinion that if it wasn't published by FASA it's kinda crap (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Except of course.. FASA had a few goose eggs themselves.

[Kagetenshi]

I'm still 1/2 of the opinion that if it wasn't published by FASA it's kinda crap (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Except of course.. FASA had a few goose eggs themselves.

Not everything early is gold, but I peg the line at… I want to say Shadows of Europe, but I can't find a chronological list. Anyway, that book and everything after it form the "Liber Non Grata" as far as SR3R is concerned, and we just pretend they don't exist.

~J

[ravensmuse]

Just curiosity, but I thought SoE was pretty well received..? Or is this some 3e holdout thing?

Like I said, honest curiosity at work here.

[Kagetenshi]

I don't have my copy on hand (and I didn't rebuy it in PDF, natch), so I can't review the details, but I know it included the genesis of the awful WMI idea. I think I had more objections, but it's not entirely impossible that the WMI connection and lack of stand-out good material caused me to shift back one book from SotA:64, which absolutely needed to go. IIRC I pegged SoE as the beginning of the world-feel migration towards SR4.

SotA:64 got tossed as soon as it came out, more or less, and I didn't buy Shadows of Asia, but it wasn't until SR4 thoroughly derailed my canon-following that I went back and tossed out the rest of the Liber Non Grata. It wasn't a rejection-on-sight like :64 was (or like War! appears to be for some here).

(Hopefully my memory of the timeline here is all accurate.)

~J

[Critias]

Wait, what? There's a distinct possibility that I've only really used SOTA '64 for the adept chapter, cop chapter, and spy fluff...but I'm pretty sure the other big chapter of it was trendy European magic crap. What's the WMI connection?

[Starglyte]

Wait, what? There's a distinct possibility that I've only really used SOTA '64 for the adept chapter, cop chapter, and spy fluff...but I'm pretty sure the other big chapter of it was trendy European magic crap. What's the WMI connection?

I think he was talking about Shadows of Europe, in answer to the previous post.

[Kagetenshi]

No no, the WMI was SoE. I bring up SotA:64 mostly because its social adept rules got me comfortable with the idea of creating the Liber Non Grata to begin with.

~J

[Critias]

Got'cha. My misreading. I was trying to picture some major WMI revelation crammed somewhere in shadowtalk about Orxploitation or the Urban Brawl scores for the year, and just scratching my head. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[hermit]

I don't have my copy on hand (and I didn't rebuy it in PDF, natch), so I can't review the details, but I know it included the genesis of the awful WMI idea.

Of course, decking via cellular networks has been possible ever since Matrix.

Sometimes I wonder, given how similar the books are in content and structure - was the working title for Unwired Matrix:Reloaded?

[sabs]

I much prefered SR1 to SR3 (I know, I'm weird)

Except for the poor Adepts. Its the one thing I like about SR4.. Adepts aren't painfully weak.

[Blade]

Back on topic for a moment: even if the letter is going to be signed by members of the community I'm looking for someone to "represent" the disappointed members of the American/English speaking community.

I'm looking for someone who isn't and hasn't been working for CGL (though some involvement such as playtesting, commando work or refused proposals isn't a problem), who doesn't have the reputation of hating SR4/SR4A/CGL/Jason Hardy, who has been disappointed by War! and is ready to be the "spokesman" of the American/English-speaking community.
Someone with a deep involvement in the Shadowrun community or whose name is well-known in the community (and by people at CGL) would be better, but isn't necessary.

Is anyone interested?

[Sengir]

I'm just saying, you guys have to admit it's kind of a Catch 22, here

It might be now, because CGL basically has the choice between either risking the fan's wrath, or throw the release schedule and organizational structure into turmoil again when they just survived the last upheaval.
But what lead to this situation were certainly not logical inescapabilities. What lead to this situation was either the complete absence of an organized planning and review process, or the planners and reviewers spent their time with youporn and googling their names. And no, I'm not throwing that in YOUR face, or in that of any of the writers.

[Draco18s]

I'm looking for someone who isn't and hasn't been working for CGL (though some involvement such as playtesting, commando work or refused proposals isn't a problem), who doesn't have the reputation of hating SR4/SR4A/CGL/Jason Hardy, who has been disappointed by War! and is ready to be the "spokesman" of the American/English-speaking community.
Someone with a deep involvement in the Shadowrun community or whose name is well-known in the community (and by people at CGL) would be better, but isn't necessary.

Is anyone interested?

I would do it, but I don't have a copy of War! and have no intention of buying it just to find out.