Fan letter to CGL, Because we care Options

[Omenowl]

But they're not updated. That's the issue. There's known errata for RC and even the PDFs haven't been updated yet.

Hence my complaint. Even so the errata for RC still does not address most of my issues with qualities differing in cost within 3 paragraphs of each other. Fame, Gear Head and I am sure there are a couple of others. I have other issues with RC such as metavariant costs, etc, but I don't expect those to be addressed. Focus on those areas where it takes the least amount of effort with the highest return. Rewriting sections is hard, but telling me if fame costs 15 or 20 points for the highest level should be easy. I mean there are plenty of other issues to address, but the glaring ones should be an easy errata.

[nezumi]

The concern is that CGL is not doing their job. If CGL continues to produce poor-quality products, that will end the line regardless. No one buys products which are terrible (or if they do, they're probably not the sort of people you'd want to be gaming with). So no one wants that to happen.

Whether Topps forces CGL to accept criticism and modify the process, or shifts SR to another publisher, either way you will continue to get products, most likely of a better quality. Yes, if you're really attached to SR4 you do risk losing to a new edition. But remember also that Topps was the one who chose Fan Pro, then CGL in the first place, and gave us the bulk of Shadowrun's fantastic line. Someone up there has a good head on her shoulders. I agree that the question of changing publishers is a bit of step into the dark, and I don't think it's something anyone should be actively campaigning for. But it shouldn't be a bogeyman either.

Mesh - you bother reading the entire letter twice, counting typos, but not highlighting what those typos are? How is that possibly helpful? If I didn't know you, I'd think you were actively trying to sabotage it.

[Mesh]

Mesh - you bother reading the entire letter twice, counting typos, but not highlighting what those typos are? How is that possibly helpful? If I didn't know you, I'd think you were actively trying to sabotage it.

I don't believe the kind of effort this letter represents is helpful. If you want a better product, work towards that not towards tearing a company down and hoping whatever comes after is better. I've put my money where my mouth is and begun proofing for Missions. I'm trying to get into the regular product line, too.

Mesh

[otakusensei]

I don't believe the kind of effort this letter represents is helpful. If you want a better product, work towards that not towards tearing a company down and hoping whatever comes after is better. I've put my money where my mouth is and begun proofing for Missions. I'm trying to get into the regular product line, too.

Mesh

If it helps I really don't care what happens to the other lines. CGL can keep doing Battletech for all I care, it's not like Battletech and Shadowrun are married. They aren't even connected in any way shape or form, save an April fools joke I never read because I don't give a lick about Battletech.

This is all about Shadowrun and the lack of quality to that line. CGL isn't jumping at fixing the problem so something needs to be done.

[hermit]

I don't believe the kind of effort this letter represents is helpful. If you want a better product, work towards that not towards tearing a company down and hoping whatever comes after is better. I've put my money where my mouth is and begun proofing for Missions. I'm trying to get into the regular product line, too.

Proofing needs to happen BEFORE something is handed in to Hardy though because that guy apparently has a history of ignoring either proofing or rules errata, neither publishing them online nor working them into the product. If you proofread in the main product, be aware your work will go entirely ignored. In that case, I hope you at least get paid.

[Mesh]

... There is just too much effort wasted in this community on spite.

Mesh

I'll end my participation in this thread by quoting myself.

Mesh

[hermit]

I hope you at least get paid.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

You really think so? I dunno, it never seemed that big of an issue to me. I always figured decks/commlinks would use high-power, high-signal transmissions when they have a need to, and drop down to low-power, low-signal bluetooth type effects when they don't. When the deck starts to lose data because of noise, it increases the signal to improve power. Meanwhile, all of the backbone stuff is still wired, not mystically transmitted across the globe sans cables. Granted, you'd reach saturation in a given area pretty fast, but error correction software and channel-switching necessarily would have to be more advanced in 2070, given the advances in programming in general.

I dunno. It just never struck me as a big issue.

Yeah, I never saw it as an issue either... I am constantly amazed at all of those who DO find it an issue... Simply amazing... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[Kid Chameleon]

But remember also that Topps was the one who chose Fan Pro, then CGL in the first place, and gave us the bulk of Shadowrun's fantastic line.

Actually WizKids chose FanPro. I believe the decision to move to CGL was under Topps control, but I'm not positive on that timeline.

[Kyoto Kid]

...egads, you go away for a while only to return home to find the house on fire.

Granted, I haven't been around much lately, but that is mostly due the discussion on these forums having moved on to 4th (4thE?) while I chose to continue with 3rd ed. Thus, I felt I had little to contribute anymore. While I have reasons for my preference, as was already mentioned elsewhere, the "this edition" vs. "that edition" bashfest has indeed grown old.

I've spent most of the day reading through this and several related threads/forums to see what a mess things have become.

In skimming the War thread (which apparently is the catalyst (IMG:style_emoticons/default/embarrassed.gif) for this thread) I can see it has some real issues. With such a title I would have expected a more generalised expansion book (like an updated version of both the old Fields of Fire supplement and mercenary chapter from SOTA '63) which primarily focused on the battlefield environment in the 6th world rather than a specific location.

But again, there is already a thread for discussing the merits/shortcomings of this latest release.

Seems that the last couple years for CGL as a company have been quite the roller coaster ride. Misappropriation of funds, non payment of freelance writers, quality control issues, staff leaving over ethical issues, staff being sacked, and even personal religious convictions entering the scene. What has happened to the game I once loved? I once entertained thoughts of becoming a freelance contributor (primarily for location books) but after reading this and other threads on what has occurred over the last year, in some ways I feel fortunate I didn't pursue that route.

Though I am not involved with the current edition of the game, I agree, there needs to be a call for accountability on the part of CGL. It would be very sad to see the Shadowrun world fade into obscurity.

[Cain]

Granted, I haven't been around much lately, but that is mostly due the discussion on these forums having moved on to 4th (4thE?)

They're on to 4.5 now.

And the way to vote is with your wallet. If you think CGL is guilty of shady accounting practices, don't buy their products. If you think CGL is putting the bottom line before quality product, don't buy it.

Fan letters are satisfying, but if even 500 die-hard Shadowrun fans choose to refuse to buy the product, that will make a dent in their profit margins. And that sends a very loud and clear message.

[Steven]

Does it? I mean does Topps really care why 500 fewer fans buy product X as opposed to product Y? Does Catalyst really look at the numbers and really try to get at the root of the problem (e.g. a poor effort on their part production-wise) or do they just say "eh, the grumbling was from a vocal minority. We did a great job, ignore them, this kind of product just wasn't wanted and we won't make something like this again"? Does CGL even need to spin the sales reports or does Topps only care about the licencing checks?

We've heard CGL will take these complaints to heart and make sure we won't get another product chockful of typos, Auschwitz dungeon crawls, and no maps...but then we also get indications that our complaints only get heard if we say "pretty please".

[Kyoto Kid]

...4.5, hmmmm, reminds me of a previous version of a certain game that should not be mentioned.

-----

Currently dealing with somewhat similar issues on two fronts.

First with a 3D CG company that keeps releasing new feature updates and add-ons while the core of their flagship application is in serious need of debugging.

Second with our local transit commission that has been continually cutting bus service while saying they can't afford it, yet at the same time can justify spending 1.6$ billion in federal and local tax revenue to build a seven mile long light rail line few people want.

It all comes down to basic fundamentals. Make an excellent product, offer excellent service, don't alienate your constituency/customer base, and the bottom line will take care of itself.

[ravensmuse]

SR4A is a good product. There's some complaints about revisions, and honestly, those have been hashed out in other threads. But 4A was released as more of a celebration of twenty years of Shadowrun, and to give fans a damn pretty, well written, well researched book.

It was just *after* that book that all of this shit hit...

[Omenowl]

4a had very minor changes. I would rate it more along the lines of 4.1 rather than a 4.5. The purchase of the book was not even necessary due to the errata clarifying any changes. It was the long delays to print for SR4a and several errors that began to bother people such as Runner's Companion. Running wild was a little better, but oddly enough did not even include stats for shapeshifters.

[Cain]

SR4A is a good product. There's some complaints about revisions, and honestly, those have been hashed out in other threads. But 4A was released as more of a celebration of twenty years of Shadowrun, and to give fans a damn pretty, well written, well researched book.

It's SR4.5, because although the changes aren't major, they are enough to force you to rewrite characters from scratch. I also use the term because it's more descriptive to non-Shadowrun players: they get the analogy much more quickly. And I'll agree that SR4.5 is damn shiny; but the quality of writing actually went down in some areas (The Matrix) and the index was overdue. No brownie points for doing your job, only for doing a great job.

[Acme]

Ok, this is the exact kind of bullshit "this edition sucks", "no it doesn't" thing that Kyoto is talking about. 'Course, I'm not surprised, but like Kyoto, I don't even bother posting here anymore because of it. Hell, I don't even trust the argument over War, I'm waiting till it comes out, will buy it, and then make my own decision based on my own tastes rather that what other people wish to complain about.

[Omenowl]

It's SR4.5, because although the changes aren't major, they are enough to force you to rewrite characters from scratch. I also use the term because it's more descriptive to non-Shadowrun players: they get the analogy much more quickly. And I'll agree that SR4.5 is damn shiny; but the quality of writing actually went down in some areas (The Matrix) and the index was overdue. No brownie points for doing your job, only for doing a great job.

That is an exaggeration. It only occurs if you abused the system or you decide to ignore all your previous advances and go with the new cost of attributes by backdating to the original creation. In most cases they are easily rectified especially in the case of adepts.

Several books of the new books have their issues and do need some work by the GM for mechanics.

[binarywraith]

Several books of the new books have their issues and do need some work by the GM for mechanics.

Which is part of why the complaints come out, I fear. If your GM has to re-write mechanics in order to make them playable, why is he bothering to buy the books at all?

[ravensmuse]

It's SR4.5, because although the changes aren't major, they are enough to force you to rewrite characters from scratch. I also use the term because it's more descriptive to non-Shadowrun players: they get the analogy much more quickly. And I'll agree that SR4.5 is damn shiny; but the quality of writing actually went down in some areas (The Matrix) and the index was overdue. No brownie points for doing your job, only for doing a great job.

D'ya see what I did Cain? I didn't make a judgment call on it. I was just trying to explain the situation to a guy that wasn't here when it came out. In fact, I'll even do the nice thing and provide some links for context, so he can make the decision on his own.

Here you go kyoto.

Catalyst Games Celebrates Twenty Years of Shadowrun!
Shadowrun 4a - Like it? Hate it?
Poll - Shadowrun 4A changes
Catalogue of SR4a changes

Summary: there were changes to BP costs, karma rules, Object Resistance, and some rules to muck around with gear. Also, they never revised karmagen to make up for the changes to the new BP costs - but that's because Ancient History got le boot.

I know you have your thing Cain, and it's a good thing - I've even complimented and stuck up for you you over it! - but all I was trying to do was provide some information to a dude that just checked back in. Not to start ye olde edition / revision wars. Not helping here.

To the other yokels - chill out, mans. You complain about the signal to noise ratio and then go ahead and cause some yourselves.

To Dumpshock in general - I hate your search engine. At least make it Google indexed, sheesh.

[nezumi]

And the way to vote is with your wallet. If you think CGL is guilty of shady accounting practices, don't buy their products. If you think CGL is putting the bottom line before quality product, don't buy it.

Fan letters are satisfying, but if even 500 die-hard Shadowrun fans choose to refuse to buy the product, that will make a dent in their profit margins. And that sends a very loud and clear message.

IMO, that's more likely to kill the line than the letter is. The letter says "hey, you are going to lose sales, and this is why'. It's a flag, it's immediate, and it explains itself, but it does not in itself pose any threat to the licensing or publishing of SR.

Poor sales is more obscure, easier to rebrand as something else. It also creeps up on you, as the first one people may buy figure it's a fluke, then the second one they get suspicious and so on. This results in a gradual shift which you may not be able to so easily identify a cause. Finally, if the publishing continues long enough at this quality, SR will get a reputation for shoddy quality. That means even if/when the issue is repaired, people still will be leery of buying. If people aren't willing to buy because of how bad it was last year, if the publisher fails to pull in as much as they were expecting, or if they figure it's best to make a lot of noise without increasing quality, THAT is how you kill a line. The end result is either a product of such poor quality none of us would want to play it, or no new products at all.

[Kagetenshi]

To Dumpshock in general - I hate your search engine. At least make it Google indexed, sheesh.

It has surprising and miserable defaults, like being an OR-search by default. Still, it could be worse—with a little judicious use of + and quotation marks the only unavoidable deficiency is the inability to search for four-letter or smaller words.

As for killing the line, in a long-term sense allowing the line to fill up with garbage seems like an excellent way to accomplish that, especially for a system where a relatively consistent, highly detailed world is a major draw.

~J

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

Ok, this is the exact kind of bullshit "this edition sucks", "no it doesn't" thing that Kyoto is talking about. 'Course, I'm not surprised, but like Kyoto, I don't even bother posting here anymore because of it. Hell, I don't even trust the argument over War, I'm waiting till it comes out, will buy it, and then make my own decision based on my own tastes rather that what other people wish to complain about.

Would you be kind to tell us what yout think of the book when you get it?

[Cain]

Ok, this is the exact kind of bullshit "this edition sucks", "no it doesn't" thing that Kyoto is talking about. 'Course, I'm not surprised, but like Kyoto, I don't even bother posting here anymore because of it. Hell, I don't even trust the argument over War, I'm waiting till it comes out, will buy it, and then make my own decision based on my own tastes rather that what other people wish to complain about.

And what if it turns out to be a total waste of money? You'll have bought a shoddy game product and supported shady practices, all for nothing.

Now, there's a chance that War! could be the greatest thing since sliced bread. And of course, you'll want to judge for yourself. But don't spend money in this economy without checking things out first. If that means checking fan reviews and forums, then do it. Don't buy blind.

[Acme]

Frankly, if the only reviews are biased against the game line as a whole, I'm not doing myself a service by listening to them, am I? Lately, any review of a SR product here is like trying to get a book review of the Quran as reviewed on Fox News.

And if it's a total waste of money, then it's my money, Cain. Don't give me any "in this economy" argument. We're gamers, even in good economies we toss stuff at things we probably don't really need.

And you're right, this is wholly distracting, but I was just agreeing with Kyoto's point about how edition wars are basically conspiring to make this whole letter fall apart before it has a chance to do anything. And maybe I'm repeating myself and I'm sorry. But that doesn't change my frustrations.