Fan letter to CGL, Because we care Options

[Cain]

And even if CGL said something to that effect, issuing an apology calling their own product shoddy and promising a rewrite (neither of which are really feasible from a corporate standpoint), I don't think many people currently angry over WAR! would, or should, quietly sit and wait for it. If anything, either they'll get tired and quit posting eventually or they'll be appeased by a visible change in the quality of the products.

Worked for car manufacturers. CGL should be no different.

[TheMadderHatter]

Worked for car manufacturers. CGL should be no different.

If you mean a recall, they don't work for car manufacturers, at least not in any positive sense. It's a very costly way of ensuring they don't get sued for someone dying due to a known flaw in their product, and it's only ever employed after all cheaper legal alternatives have been considered. It's almost purely a prophylactic measure.

No one's going to sue CGL over trauma caused by reading a poorly written book (and win), so it becomes much less likely that anyone on the corporate end is going to suggest that they hurt sales of an existing product still more by any sort of rewriting, at least this soon into the sales run.

[Kid Chameleon]

If you mean a recall, they don't work for car manufacturers, at least not in any positive sense. It's a very costly way of ensuring they don't get sued for someone dying due to a known flaw in their product, and it's only ever employed after all cheaper legal alternatives have been considered. It's almost purely a prophylactic measure.

Now, should we initiate a recall? Take the number of vehicles in the field, A, multiply by the probable rate of failure, B, multiply by the average out-of-court settlement, C. A times B times C equals X. If X is less than the cost of a recall, we don't do one.

[Doc Chase]

"Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me."

I'm not risking my money unless I am sure I am buying a quality product.

Thank you. I've been fooled twice now.

[Draco18s]

Thank you. I've been fooled twice now.

I've been bit over computer games (hiss, Spore, hiss) so I'm significantly more cautious than I used to be. I'm even skeptical over Portal 2 and Natural Selection 2 (although I've paid for that already; I wanted beta access). With rare exception I don't buy anything unless its been out for at least 6 months.

[Acme]

Yeah, I think it's just time I stop posting on DS to save my health.

[nezumi]

Then why do you post that to tell everyone?

Blade is making some progress - excellent. It's not a guarantee. I wouldn't even give it 50/50 odds of really addressing the issue. But it's a huge step.

We got two people who committed to sending letters (sent those yet??) - Good! Worst case, it ends up in the trash. Best case, someone actually listens.

We've got a bunch of people who are pausing to consider if War! is high enough quality to be worth spending their time and money on - Good! That's the strongest (although, IMO, most risky) avenue for communication.

I don't know why anyone is getting stressed out about this. This is a great thing. It's called a feedback loop. The people making the products get feedback on what went well and what didn't. That is a critical component of managing a product lifecycle! If CGL wasn't getting this information before, they really should be. If you discount the vitriol and look at the actual, hard results from this situation, it's been very positive. You can't get caught up in the fact that other people have different emotional states than you (and may be more aggressive in posting about it). Just understand that people love the product line, aren't happy with the product, but are taking active, constructive steps to address the gap. That's wonderful.

[Cain]

No one's going to sue CGL over trauma caused by reading a poorly written book (and win), so it becomes much less likely that anyone on the corporate end is going to suggest that they hurt sales of an existing product still more by any sort of rewriting, at least this soon into the sales run.

But you highlight the point. Sales pressure is the only kind of message they'll listen to. If War! flops, for whatever reason, they'll learn or the license will go to someone else.

Look, I'm not advocating wildcat strikes or anything of the sort. I'm simply pointing out that if it's a crappy product, don't spend your money on it. Wait until they have a good product to buy.

[TheMadderHatter]

But you highlight the point. Sales pressure is the only kind of message they'll listen to. If War! flops, for whatever reason, they'll learn or the license will go to someone else.

Look, I'm not advocating wildcat strikes or anything of the sort. I'm simply pointing out that if it's a crappy product, don't spend your money on it. Wait until they have a good product to buy.

And I never disputed that (although I think the writers have enough love of the craft that, all else being equal, they'd rather improve it than leave it be). I agree completely, in fact. Buying WAR! is probably the worst way to get any sort of change made to future products.

My original post in this vein referred to the comment that people are still complaining even after we've been told changes are being made. I intended to suggest that no amount of promised change, no matter how injurious to CGL those promises would be, is going to quiet those already clearly dissatisfied; that either time or improvement will. I was also indicating that it's probably a good thing that simply being told things are changing won't get people to stop complaining, if only because the alternative would suggest that damage control was a sufficient counter to consumer dissatisfaction. It is necessary but not sufficient.

My apologies for the confusion.

[Draco18s]

We got two people who committed to sending letters (sent those yet??) - Good! Worst case, it ends up in the trash. Best case, someone actually listens.

No, it's sitting on my desk. <.<
Not like I'd get to the post office today anyway (lol snow*).

*I may not even make it into work. There's an accident between me and the freeway already, plus the freeway is backed up basically the whole length I need to travel.

[Blade]

I've sent my two registered letters (to CGL and Topps) today.

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

I've sent letters to both Topps and CGL, copying the letter on nezumis 348th post of this thread.
I expect them to arrive in 2-3 weeks...

[Kyoto Kid]

I've heard through the internet grapevine that Borders may be going out of business. So, that's one channel CGL can't use anymore.

...while in financial trouble the company itself is not completely going out of business but instead is scaling back their operations in an effort to restructure their debt. Along with stores under the Borders name, the parent company (Borders Group) also owns Waldenbooks and has already shut down over 100 WB stores with another 200 slated to close this year.

...don't expect them to have much in the way of new titles for a while though as part of the restructuring Borders has frozen payments to vendors prompting them (the vendors) to stop sending books to the company.

[Doc Chase]

...don't expect them to have much in the way of new titles for a while though as part of the restructuring Borders has frozen payments to vendors prompting them (the vendors) to stop sending books to the company.

Chrysler did that back in '07. It did not end well for them. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Cain]

...while in financial trouble the company itself is not completely going out of business but instead is scaling back their operations in an effort to restructure their debt. Along with stores under the Borders name, the parent company (Borders Group) also owns Waldenbooks and has already shut down over 100 WB stores with another 200 slated to close this year.

...don't expect them to have much in the way of new titles for a while though as part of the restructuring Borders has frozen payments to vendors prompting them (the vendors) to stop sending books to the company.

Good to have confirmation, I only had internet rumor to go on.

I guess my point is, send letters if it makes you feel better. But don't expect results without applying financial pressure. War!, by all accounts is a crappy product. Don't spend your money on crap. Maybe a boycott of War! will get their attention.

[Saint Sithney]

Is there a Fred Christ working at Topps and/or CGL? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

No, but it is funny you should bring up an alien cult in relation to CGL's difficulties...


TOS. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sarcastic.gif)

[nezumi]

I guess my point is, send letters if it makes you feel better. But don't expect results without applying financial pressure. War!, by all accounts is a crappy product. Don't spend your money on crap. Maybe a boycott of War! will get their attention.

I think the book sales issue is, for the most part, out of our hands. Hopefully that issue will settle itself. If not... I guess we're out-voted. At least we're doing what we can and waving our flags about trouble down the track.

[Grinder]

Good to have confirmation, I only had internet rumor to go on.

A posting in a mesage board is much more reliable than a internet rumor? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

[hermit]

I'll send my two letters, too.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

And I never disputed that (although I think the writers have enough love of the craft that, all else being equal, they'd rather improve it than leave it be). I agree completely, in fact. Buying WAR! is probably the worst way to get any sort of change made to future products.

Assuming that you agree witht that sentiment, which some people do not...
Just Sayin'... :wobble

[CanRay]

How about a group of Dumpshockers get the folks from CGL backed into a corner during a Con and explain in very calm and mature tones exactly how they screwed up in War!?

And, when that doesn't work, stop being calm and mature.

I'll bring The Chairleg of Truth!

[Cain]

I think the book sales issue is, for the most part, out of our hands. Hopefully that issue will settle itself. If not... I guess we're out-voted. At least we're doing what we can and waving our flags about trouble down the track.

Book sales is entirely in our hands. There's a question of how much profit they'll lose on this run, but if War! flops, future runs will be hurt and slashed deeply. This is what a company understands.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Book sales is entirely in our hands. There's a question of how much profit they'll lose on this run, but if War! flops, future runs will be hurt and slashed deeply. This is what a company understands.

I still think that you are being overly optimistic in this opinion Cain... As others have pointed out, By the time that the book hits the streets, CGL has already made their money on the product. I do not see a minor blip in the sales (which is all that you could POSSIBLY represent, and even then, not likely) will bother them in the slightest. It is not like there have not been such blips in the past 20 years of Shadowrun, I am sure, and it is not like there won't be others in the future. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[Omenowl]

I still think that you are being overly optimistic in this opinion Cain... As others have pointed out, By the time that the book hits the streets, CGL has already made their money on the product. I do not see a minor blip in the sales (which is all that you could POSSIBLY represent, and even then, not likely) will bother them in the slightest. It is not like there have not been such blips in the past 20 years of Shadowrun, I am sure, and it is not like there won't be others in the future. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

If the book flops they won't make a reprint. They spent the money to publish it and they assume they will get a return as the book is sold to distributers/resellers. The pdf already sold. The physical copy has not. The other possibility is they will stop printing books and merely release pdfs then the quality doesn't have to be there to get a better return.

[Cain]

I still think that you are being overly optimistic in this opinion Cain... As others have pointed out, By the time that the book hits the streets, CGL has already made their money on the product. I do not see a minor blip in the sales (which is all that you could POSSIBLY represent, and even then, not likely) will bother them in the slightest. It is not like there have not been such blips in the past 20 years of Shadowrun, I am sure, and it is not like there won't be others in the future. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

Like I said, there are 12,000 Dumpshockers alone. There's also a considerable number of Shadowrun fans on other web forums that link to here. Let's stick with just Dumpshcokers, and imagine the effect if they all boycotted War! I don't care how big your print run is, that would make more than a "minor blip".

Let's be a bit more reasonable and assume that only 10% of Dumpshockers know and care about War! and the CGL fiasco, enough to boycott. That's still a net loss of 1,200 books to CGL. Given the fact that the rpg hobby is a niche market at best, that's still going to be a hit to the bottom line.