Fan letter to CGL, Because we care Options

[CanRay]

Or you could just raise your hand in the "What's up with Shadowrun?" talk.

MADNESS!!!

Although that would be more polite and likely for a Canuck like me to do...

[ravensmuse]

I just want to write this quick -

I still support the letter campaign. If I had a little more time tonight, I'd c/p the letter and do a quickie edit. Don't have that time.

But I am done arguing with everyone. If you don't support the letter, if you think everything is fine, cool. Then go do something else.

If you're like me and you support the letter, take a copy of it, print it, and snail mail it out to the proper folks at Topps.

Beyond that, I think the best thing any of us can do is continue to do what we love with Shadowrun and just let it all be settled. Me? I've got a brand new game to plan for, some stuff to think over for Data Haven, and I've been thinking of doing my part with the Sixth World wiki.

But whatever you decide to do, do it because you love Shadowrun, not because some dood on an internet message board called you a bad name or distrusts a company because they've shown that they're willing to screw everyone else in order to save face and make money. Remember, remember, April 2010 and all of that.

Just saying.

[CanRay]

My statements to the contrary, one bad book does not make a pattern. Yeah, there's been some issues with previous books, but they were what they said on the tin. War! wasn't.

I'm going to wait and see before I put in my two cents.

And, frankly, I have it on good authority that all media is going to hell in a hand basket when it comes to quality control... Why should RPGs be any different?

I mean, have we seen a game come out recently that HASN'T had a patch for it a week or two after release recently? *Shakes Head*

[Draco18s]

My statements to the contrary, one bad book does not make a pattern. Yeah, there's been some issues with previous books, but they were what they said on the tin. War! wasn't.

Some issues -> Many issues -> Not a trend?

[sabs]

My statements to the contrary, one bad book does not make a pattern. Yeah, there's been some issues with previous books, but they were what they said on the tin. War! wasn't.

I'm going to wait and see before I put in my two cents.

And, frankly, I have it on good authority that all media is going to hell in a hand basket when it comes to quality control... Why should RPGs be any different?

I mean, have we seen a game come out recently that HASN'T had a patch for it a week or two after release recently? *Shakes Head*

Yeah, but they don't patch RPGS
and they certainly don't patch them for free.

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

Yeah, but they don't patch RPGS
and they certainly don't patch them for free.

Errata is a kind of patch.

[sabs]

Errata is a kind of patch.

When's the last time we saw errata for a CGL shadowrun product?

[hermit]

Errata that CGL doesn't seem to want to release.

[Caine Hazen]

I have it on a pretty good source that if Smith and Tinker took over Shadowrun, they'd nuke the setting and start over from ground zero

Posthuman already caught flak for mixing too much transhumanism into Shadowrun, so they just made EP. Good game, I'd rather they keep their eye on that ball and not water down their talent spliting up dev and writing on multiple games. And who's to say, since they've all been down the SR road, they want it back?

[hermit]

I have it on a pretty good source that if Smith and Tinker took over Shadowrun, they'd nuke the setting and start over from ground zero

And who's supposed to buy it? What for?

Still all for Pegasus, myself.

[Adarael]

Presumably, the same people that bought D&D 4th edition, or nWoD, or any other such massive revamp.

Either way, I don't find it terribly surprising. Current Shadowrun is fairly different from what Weisman originally wrote.

[ravensmuse]

Why yes, let's destroy twenty years of history - which we should be celebrating more of, Catalyst - because it might make it more popular.

This current trend of nuking deeply historical worlds because "metaplot ruins my games" disgusts me. Honest truth.

Two years ago me probably wouldn't have wrote that sentence in regards to any world, honestly.

ETA:

Posthuman already caught flak for mixing too much transhumanism into Shadowrun...

Again, IMO, I appreciated this, muchly. Too much doom and gloom in some settings nowadays, and as I've said on here before, I know some people, especially among the transgender crowd, that really appreciated it too. It doesn't take much to include everyone, y'know?

I wish I had the money to pull together for the hardbound EP book - and the space (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Semerkhet]

Posthuman already caught flak for mixing too much transhumanism into Shadowrun, so they just made EP. Good game, I'd rather they keep their eye on that ball and not water down their talent spliting up dev and writing on multiple games. And who's to say, since they've all been down the SR road, they want it back?

I, for one, wish they had mixed in more transhumanism. I like EP but I also think SR could use some of the same concepts and not just be aping EP. I don't like the idea of SR avoiding certain technologies or themes just because they are identified with transhumanism. One of the saddest things I saw in the developer chat regarding War! that AH leaked was when Jason Hardy said something along the lines of "we shouldn't do anything that looks like transhumanism because EP has that covered."

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I, for one, wish they had mixed in more transhumanism. I like EP but I also think SR could use some of the same concepts and not just be aping EP. I don't like the idea of SR avoiding certain technologies or themes just because they are identified with transhumanism. One of the saddest things I saw in the developer chat regarding War! that AH leaked was when Jason Hardy said something along the lines of "we shouldn't do anything that looks like transhumanism because EP has that covered."

Agreed... Shadowrun should really be including a great deal of Transhumanism at this point...
Oh Well, nothing stopping em from doing that at or Table I guess... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[GrepZen]

Seeing as how SR started on the Gibson & techno-dystopia trope I can't fathom why it doesn't have more transhumanism in it. Hell, throw in the magic factor and that amps up the whole concept (whether it be necromancy, transmutation, or a combination thereof). If anything, removing transhumanism from the plot line erases many of the key concepts of the genre. The question of "what is human" is still relivant today.

[raben-aas]

The question "what is human" is even more important in a world full of orcs, trolls, elves, ghouls, vampires, wendigo etc.

I think adding the techside of transhumanism to SR is somewhat ... well, let's say that for us "mere humans" exploring and expanding the limits of our race is more interesting than for any human in the Sixth World (who is thankful that he hasn't transmogrified to a four-armed monkey or Obsidiman – yet).

Meaning: The question "what is human" IS or SHOULD BE one of the central motifs in SR – but not necessarily in a technobabble way.

[hermit]

Presumably, the same people that bought D&D 4th edition, or nWoD, or any other such massive revamp.

Either way, I don't find it terribly surprising. Current Shadowrun is fairly different from what Weisman originally wrote.

Agreed, but while D&D 4 found customers - and D&D is the opposite of a setting-driven game - nWoD lost far more fans than it gained. Also, SR has strayed considerably from Weisman's ideas, but whether straying even more from them would fix this is ... doubtful.

This current trend of nuking deeply historical worlds because "metaplot ruins my games" disgusts me. Honest truth.

+1. Also, it doesn't do the systems much good either. It's just lazyness of the writers, so they don't have anything to read up and can just start over (with writing of sub-par quality, if Hill and Wich are any indication of the talent of current nWoD writers).

The question "what is human" is even more important in a world full of orcs, trolls, elves, ghouls, vampires, wendigo etc.

I think adding the techside of transhumanism to SR is somewhat ... well, let's say that for us "mere humans" exploring and expanding the limits of our race is more interesting than for any human in the Sixth World (who is thankful that he hasn't transmogrified to a four-armed monkey or Obsidiman – yet).

Meaning: The question "what is human" IS or SHOULD BE one of the central motifs in SR – but not necessarily in a technobabble way.

Indeed.

[Doc Chase]

Actually, given many of the people I've encountered, that seems like it could be a very, very bad idea. Unless it's someone who is intelligent, eloquent, eager to push balanced discussion, preferably with a question prepared beforehand, I see the potential for it just reinforcing the lack of communication we're seeing.

Make questions sessions seem like protests and they'll stop having questions sessions - but probably still won't listen to your protests.

Truth be told, I'm quite tempted to ask the question come GenCon Indy. Frightningly, I have the feeling that it will still be an unresolved question in the coming eight months. There's a quality issue that now exists. While we have word from some of the freelancers that it's being looked at, in the next eight months we will have several releases that will lend support to one camp or the other.

Will I purchase another product? That's actually fairly likely for me, however it will be for different reasons. I've left off buying these books for the fluff and crunch, and now am looking at it as a research project - I'm judging the company by the fruits of their labor, and in Indianapolis come the first week of August, I will be on hand to ask "Why did the editing process miss these problems?"

What remains to be seen is will it involve just War!/6WA, or subsequent releases?

[Dread Moores]

nWoD lost far more fans than it gained.

Is this established somewhere? That's not meant to argue the point, that's me being honestly curious. Is it personal experience with you and those you know that leads you to that, or was this mentioned somewhere (like WW saying sales were way down, or something of that sort)? I'm asking, because I wasn't an old WoD player (was too busy with SR and BT), and came into only around the Time of Judgement/birth of the nWoD. I've actually enjoyed most of the nWoD (though to be fair, I haven't looked at anything from the last year), so I was wondering what had led to that statement.

[Semerkhet]

Is this established somewhere? That's not meant to argue the point, that's me being honestly curious. Is it personal experience with you and those you know that leads you to that, or was this mentioned somewhere (like WW saying sales were way down, or something of that sort)? I'm asking, because I wasn't an old WoD player (was too busy with SR and BT), and came into only around the Time of Judgement/birth of the nWoD. I've actually enjoyed most of the nWoD (though to be fair, I haven't looked at anything from the last year), so I was wondering what had led to that statement.

I don't have hard numbers but I do know that White Wolf was not selling product at the most recent GenCon and I overheard lots of "how the mighty have fallen" conversations. I'm the opposite of you, having played a lot of old WoD and then stopped entirely with the change-over to nWoD. The manager of my FLGS complained that nWoD books don't move at all and he's had the same stock for the last year.

So, that's pretty anecdotal but my impression has been that a lot of fans didn't make the transfer from old to new and I would expect that, should Shadowrun do the same sort of reboot, we would see a similar splintering of the SR community. Hell, we've already got splintering between the various editions, imagine the wailing and tearing-of-hair if there was a complete reboot.

[Adam]

Posthuman already caught flak for mixing too much transhumanism into Shadowrun, so they just made EP.

The people who run Posthuman, when we worked on Shadowrun, "caught flak" for everything, and were giving praise for everything. As is the nature of working on a widely-loved game.

Trying to say that the transhumanistic elements of Shadowrun were part of some sort of downfall of Shadowrun is an ... interesting perspective. As is implying that we were failing at Shadowrun, so we "just" decided to go off and make a completely different game.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

The people who run Posthuman, when we worked on Shadowrun, "caught flak" for everything, and were giving praise for everything. As is the nature of working on a widely-loved game.

Trying to say that the transhumanistic elements of Shadowrun were part of some sort of downfall of Shadowrun is an ... interesting perspective. As is implying that we were failing at Shadowrun, so we "just" decided to go off and make a completely different game.

I, for one, Absolutely Love what was done with Eclipse Phase... Congrats on an amazing product... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[ravensmuse]

The people who run Posthuman, when we worked on Shadowrun, "caught flak" for everything, and were giving praise for everything. As is the nature of working on a widely-loved game.

Trying to say that the transhumanistic elements of Shadowrun were part of some sort of downfall of Shadowrun is an ... interesting perspective. As is implying that we were failing at Shadowrun, so we "just" decided to go off and make a completely different game.

Eclipse Phase is one of those games that I will pick up when funds are better, unfortunately.

As far as WoD goes, apparently the reason that White Wolf didn't have a "true" booth at Gencon was that they were trying to advertise more for their convention down in Louisiana this year. That's the scuttlebutt I picked up. I haven't been a WoD fan since the Time of Judgment and from what I've picked up anecdotally, the fans have dwindled.

No hard proof to back that though, sorry.

[hermit]

Is this established somewhere? That's not meant to argue the point, that's me being honestly curious. Is it personal experience with you and those you know that leads you to that, or was this mentioned somewhere (like WW saying sales were way down, or something of that sort)?

As the others have said, mostly anecdotal references, but I also read an article that WW sales have gone down with nWoD. Now if only I could *find* that. Generally, my FLGS also complained sales of WoD are down since the changeover to nWoD.

[Lansdren]

The people who run Posthuman, when we worked on Shadowrun, "caught flak" for everything, and were giving praise for everything. As is the nature of working on a widely-loved game.

Trying to say that the transhumanistic elements of Shadowrun were part of some sort of downfall of Shadowrun is an ... interesting perspective. As is implying that we were failing at Shadowrun, so we "just" decided to go off and make a completely different game.

I too while not wanting to threadjack have to say love the stuff going on with eclipse phase