Fan letter to CGL, Because we care Options

[hermit]

Oh, it's very nice, EP. I see SR going more like a mix of EP and CthulhuTech for the future, though, so it'S not too transhuman in the way SR would be.

[raben-aas]

The question about dropping sales figures at WW's end is if those drops are an effect of nWoD or if that same drop (or an even steeper one) would have happened anyway. This ain't the 90s no more. Vampires are glittering now. And it's not like tabletop RPGs were getting more and more popular.

[Grinder]

We have threads for Eclipse Phase and Word of Darkness - please use them for discussing both games.

[nezumi]

Eclipse Phase is one of those games that I will pick up when funds are better, unfortunately.

You know it's free, right? If you want to pick it up, pick it up, then when funds are better later, pay for it then. It's cool, Adam knows you're good for it.

Regarding restarting SR... I would be very curious how many people dropped off from SR3/SR4, how many stayed on, and how many new people jumped on board. While I don't think it's an exact match, it would be very telling. Frankly, I'm not totally against the idea of doing a full reboot of SR (so says the guy who plays SR3). I don't think people played SR for the metaplot, and they don't play SR4 for the mechanics. The most common issue I hear brought up is that of flavor - 80s, cyberpunk, transhumanism, pink mohawk, black trenchcoat. The most metaplot I hear brought up is past missions, like Bugs and the Arc. Those come and go. The fact that there was a corp called Fuchi a long time ago isn't a huge selling point. Since I don't feel like SR4 is keeping the flavor I enjoy (and they already lost the mechanics), a reboot would be fine by me, as long as it's done well. Put together Smith, Tinker & Boyle and I'll pre-order it right now.

[deek]

My opinion is that if SR got a reboot, the SR3 people would probably just stay SR3, as they like what they have. Maybe they would check out an SR5, but highly doubtful they would switch over completely. I think the majority of the SR4 people would just jump over to the new game, as I don't really feel that anyone is really a die-hard SR4 fan. Its the latest incarnation and it can be fun, but no one is going to hang around when a new SR version comes out.

[sabs]

Having read a bunch of SR3 sourcebooks i downloaded. SR3 diehards make me scratch their heads.. SR3 is nowhere near as good or entertaining as SR1/2.

[ravensmuse]

I've said it before on here, but SR4 is the first edition of Shadowrun that I felt that I could play just as much as I could read. So there's that.

I'm also a fan of the metaplot developments, and I'm not really crazy over the more 'street level' feel of the game, but hey - that's cool. I can build that stuff up on my own. I'd like to see more stuff like Year of the Comet, or the Bugs, or anything, but with the advent of 4th Edition, that seems to have fallen to the wayside for...wars thanks to trees. Uh...(okay, I'm not starting, swear).

I'd be curious to see what a revamp would change, though; what parts of the current SR canon do the original authors not dig? That's what I would be curious about.

Nezumi: I know that it's free, and I have the .pdf. What I'm saying is, I'd like to be actually purchase the book, so I can encourage the authors to continue their work. I'm still working on getting my friends into the idea of it (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Kagetenshi]

Having read a bunch of SR3 sourcebooks i downloaded. SR3 diehards make me scratch their heads.. SR3 is nowhere near as good or entertaining as SR1/2.

The quality of world-building was in decline, though I'd take issue with "nowhere near", at least during the first half or so of the edition. The rules, though, had a number of much-needed tweaks and fixes and are a clear improvement (though they could still use more work—hence SR3R).

~J

[ravensmuse]

And though I'm a 4e diehard, I thought there was a fine amount of world building done in third edition. Shadows of Europe, Year of the Comet, Dragons of the Sixth World, Brainscan, the State of the Art books, and yeah, even System Failure.

[Omenowl]

I firmly believe games should have a good background story. What I do not want is furthering of a metaplot in most instances. Give me a start dart and a fully fleshed out coherent logical background. And if you are going to do a metaplot then have a nice thread to give an idea of the metaplot. What I do not want is a drip, drip of metaplot or where it interferes with a continuing line. The seattle sourcebook did a good job of giving several directions of what could happen over the next few years. This is what I want to see in the books with a occasional updates in the history.

[CanRay]

If a game series has a good backstory, I'll buy the books even if I don't use them, just to read them like I would a novel.

I have almost the entire collection of Old Skool Deadlands books because of the universe.

[nezumi]

To those of you talking about buying it for the back-story - how many would require a continuous backstory? i.e., SR5 holds all of the backstory from SR1-4 to still be true and canon, vs. a new backstory, probably from a new point of historical divergence?

[hermit]

To those of you talking about buying it for the back-story - how many would require a continuous backstory? i.e., SR5 holds all of the backstory from SR1-4 to still be true and canon, vs. a new backstory, probably from a new point of historical divergence?

I would not buy 'Shadowrun reimagined", plain and simple. Because I have no faith in current RPG authors to make it worthwhile, and because I have no interest in a world that is just like shadowrun except the background, which is what drew my interest to begin with.

What we would get would in all likelyhood be like Cyberpunk 3. Which SUCKS. None of the originality of Shadowrun would remain and it'd be one transhuman/near future magic setting among how many now, 10? Entirely bland and uninteresting for me.

[nezumi]

If the RPG authors made a new background, they suck, but if they continue with the current background, they're okay?

If the authors suck, the authors suck, regardless as to what they're building off of. I don't see how restarting the background has any bearing on this.

[deek]

hermit, I understand where you are coming from, but that is a rather large body of work to force upon new players in order to play a game. When I played SR1 back in high school, I had very little idea about all the metaplot. There were megacorps, there was cyber, matrix and magic, riggers and street samurai and spirits. There were multiple races that came about due to a genetic mutation. There were critters. And shadowrunners were hired to do shit and be expendable assets. That was the only background I had back then and it was more than enough to run around Seattle and have a lot of fun gaming.

After a long layoff, I came back, as my interest was piqued by seeing an announcement about SR4. I looked it up, bought the book and my players bought into wanting to play based on the same basic background I had for SR1, with the only difference being the matrix was now wireless and there were Technomancers (which I immediately banned from gameplay).

Once we started playing, I found my what to DSF and read references to Year of the Comet, Bug City, Dragon President, blah blah blah. Now, as a GM, I was curious about a lot of this stuff and got more information on it, but my players enjoyed the game without any single piece of this metaplot coming to light in our games.

To me, and forgive me for my cancerous reference, but Shadowrun metaplot is no more rich than say, Ravenloft, Forgotten Realms, Dark Sun, Dragonlance, Spelljammer, Greyhawk, etc. Its all DnD with some differences, but its all one game. With Shadowrun, the game i.e. mechanics, is married to the metaplot/setting. That is fine, but for any newbie or many others that are just interested in playing a game in the now, I don't think the metaplot or the story staying consistent matters. Obviously it matters to all of those that have invested time and money in learning it all, but that pool of people is likely not going to increase sales as much as the former would.

It seems to me the base is already kind of split between SR4 and SR3. There is obviously a risk of splitting it even more with an SR5, but to the decision makers, this is a business and businesses take risks.

[Blade]

Recently, I've been thinking that SR4 should end on a "end-game" situation (which doesn't have to be a world-shattering event, it could be a new scientific breakthrough or a society change) that would completely change the way Shadowrun is played.

And then SR5 could let the players use the existing setting between the 2040s and the end of SR4. The global tone and setting would be roughly the same with small variations so that different groups could choose what suit them best while still playing the same game. New elements could still be added in the holes outside existing material (between 2065 and 2070, things that happened outside Seattle/UCAS before 2055)

[otakusensei]

hermit, I understand where you are coming from, but that is a rather large body of work to force upon new players in order to play a game. When I played SR1 back in high school, I had very little idea about all the metaplot. There were megacorps, there was cyber, matrix and magic, riggers and street samurai and spirits. There were multiple races that came about due to a genetic mutation. There were critters. And shadowrunners were hired to do shit and be expendable assets. That was the only background I had back then and it was more than enough to run around Seattle and have a lot of fun gaming.

After a long layoff, I came back, as my interest was piqued by seeing an announcement about SR4. I looked it up, bought the book and my players bought into wanting to play based on the same basic background I had for SR1, with the only difference being the matrix was now wireless and there were Technomancers (which I immediately banned from gameplay).

Once we started playing, I found my what to DSF and read references to Year of the Comet, Bug City, Dragon President, blah blah blah. Now, as a GM, I was curious about a lot of this stuff and got more information on it, but my players enjoyed the game without any single piece of this metaplot coming to light in our games.

To me, and forgive me for my cancerous reference, but Shadowrun metaplot is no more rich than say, Ravenloft, Forgotten Realms, Dark Sun, Dragonlance, Spelljammer, Greyhawk, etc. Its all DnD with some differences, but its all one game. With Shadowrun, the game i.e. mechanics, is married to the metaplot/setting. That is fine, but for any newbie or many others that are just interested in playing a game in the now, I don't think the metaplot or the story staying consistent matters. Obviously it matters to all of those that have invested time and money in learning it all, but that pool of people is likely not going to increase sales as much as the former would.

It seems to me the base is already kind of split between SR4 and SR3. There is obviously a risk of splitting it even more with an SR5, but to the decision makers, this is a business and businesses take risks.

SR4 is great in this respect because it tried from the outset to keep things street level. All that metaplot is happening, but its so high above your head that it doesn't matter. You get to do all that stuff you did in SR1.

However, if you know the story you can go ahead and incorporate it. As GM you can kill yourself trying to keep everything lined up to the history, but I find that it only ever comes up when I bring it up. And then it acts as this interesting bit my players get to work out the mysteries of. If I don't know the mystery, they don't run the adventure. Not a big deal.

But the metaplot still has to be there, it's just not Shadowrun without it. The interesting thing is you can play the game, that can be Shadowrun, and you never deal with the metaplot once. It's the nice thing about having a setting and mechanics that are tied to each other rather than a mechanical platform and modular settings.

[ravensmuse]

Exactly, otaku. Shadowrun isn't Shadowrun if it tries to rid itself of the metaplot.

I had a big post all plotted out in my head, but now I'm under a time constraint so I'll make it quick: the problem isn't so much metaplot. Otaku is right in that Shadowrun is *mostly* street-level, but all of the high end big time stuff means that there are more jobs on the ground than just "corporate espionage". It gives things background - places where, if it's mentioned again in another book, players can pat themselves on the back and say, "yeah, that was us."

What needs to happen is that there needs to be somewhere we can reference plot material that's written officially by the company and relatively "deep". We've got the Sixth World Wiki, but that's fanbased, and most players don't know about it. And yes, I plan on adding my own two cents to the Wiki, swear. Just gotta find the time.

Argh, I have more, but it'll have to wait...

[CanRay]

If they rebooted the series, they'd have a serious, SERIOUS uphill battle to make it work properly to the point that the fans would be happy, and would still lose a number of die hard fans.

It's POSSIBLE (Look at the recent Battlestar Galactica TV show!), but very rarely properly done.

Not so much a matter of "If they don't change it they're good, if they change it they suck", it's just repetition in history of reboots sucking. And, even if they don't change it, they can still make it suck by not keeping up the quality of the previous work.

[Draco18s]

I think the only way I'd be happy with a reboot is if they retconned back to about 2050 or 2060. I love the old metaplot, Big D, the crash of '29, the Archology Shutdown...

Its the newer stuff I haven't been so thrilled with (or at least, not as thrilled). Actually, I have no idea what's going on in the metaplot these days...that might be some indication...

[deek]

No matter what anyone would do, not all the fans would be happy and there would be some fans that would be lost. That's just the nature of change, no matter how good or bad it is. The question really is, would a change get more fans playing and buying books, supporting a single system, or would the change just segment the fanbase even more.

At some point, there's going to be another Shadowrun, whether its new mechanics, further metaplot or some sort of a rehash, repackage of what works best in the past. I don't think there's any question about that. I'm not active in any SR campaign, and only invested lightly in any one version, so I am positioned to go into a new system quite easily. If it sucks and no one wants to play it with me, no biggie. I bought a core book and it sits on my shelf gathering dust. If it is better, then I'm going to get my friends excited about it and play it. But you won't see me going back to anything prior to SR4...there's just no interest there, since I basically missed that bus a long time ago.

[Draco18s]

No matter what anyone would do, not all the fans would be happy and there would be some fans that would be lost. That's just the nature of change, no matter how good or bad it is.

Very true.

Anyway, I finally have my envelopes addressed, so now I just need to make a run to the post office. Meant to do it Tuesday when I got off work early due to the weather, but I didn't have the addresses at the time (and I was only two blocks from the post office!).

[Nath]

I think the only way I'd be happy with a reboot is if they retconned back to about 2050 or 2060. I love the old metaplot, Big D, the crash of '29, the Archology Shutdown...

Its the newer stuff I haven't been so thrilled with (or at least, not as thrilled). Actually, I have no idea what's going on in the metaplot these days...that might be some indication...

Between 2005 and 2008, there have been really few metaplot moves, as rulebooks and city sourcebooks (at least, with the cities covered) provided little excuse to make some metaplots advance. Only Corporate Enclaves did saw very small seed about Horizon.

Emergence has actually killed for good the AI and Otaku metaplots, by making the things public and widespread. The purpose of the book, and later of Ghost Cartels, was to have a plot started, played and ended in a single book, instead of having tidbits of information spread over a dozen of releases.
The same thing happened with insect spirits in Bug City. Yes, Target: UCAS and Feral Cities were released after, but they basically describe how life in Chicago is very slowly returning to... maybe not normal, but as normal as things can get, which is seemingly barely more dangerous than Lagos.

Dunkelzahn death in Dunkelzahn's Secrets: Portfolio of a Dragon and the Dragonheart Trilogy was the climax of the "Earthdawn Legacy" metaplot. The Rite of succession in Survival of the Fittest and the Rinelle overthrowing the Tir Tairngire government tied up sort of loose ends. System Failure ended in a single book the Winternight, Art Dankwalther and the Ares/Cross feud metaplots, and left the AI and New Revolution barely alive. The 4th Edition also had General Saito out with a one-liner, Corporate Guide seemingly put an end to Johnny Spinrad attempts to fight off Lofwyr (there was little chance to see it continued anyway, as it was Peter Taylor pet plot), and Sixth World Almanac ended the fight between the Lord Protector and the Pendragon in the UK. In the German and French settings, 3rd ed Shockwellen did the same with Proteus, and French version of 4th ed SOX with the aristocratic conspiracy.

The 4th edition still has the Horizon metaplot, and a South America metaplot that includes the tempo arc and the war. Shiawase and Ares Macrotechnology board infightings, and Ares secret works on insect spirits, may also evolve into full-fledged metaplots at some point. The New Revolution may also return.

I don't count Dawn of the Artifacts as a metaplot, since it has been pretty much self-contained so far.

[Draco18s]

So in other words, 4E ended all the open metaplots?

[Omenowl]

So in other words, 4E ended all the open metaplots?

That is probably a good thing. NWoD did terribly because it had nothing going for it as far as backstory at least initially. As for myself I would rather see Shadowrun go more along the way exalted did for a metaplot. They laid all the threads and only near the end did they actually play through it. Pick a time, stick with it and then flesh out the world and the rules. Only then move the future forward.