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> Changlings,, In relation to goblinisation.
Shockwave_IIc
post Mar 16 2004, 05:17 AM
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Ok via the BP system you can be an ork for 5 BP's for that you get...
+3 Body, +2 Str, -1 Cha, -1 Int and Low light vision plus any racism the GM desides to throw at you.

As A changling you can get the same for a small sum of 15 Bp's (assuming your GM force's you to pay 5 Bp's just to be one.....)

Seems odd.
So i was entertaining the idea of say that if you pay the additional cost then you gain all the benefits of your chosen metatype. BUT the penalties only apply to your attribute max not the actual stat. But then people would be trolls a lot more.... So for trolls you pay another 5 Bp's?

You could also use this to represent people who warn't born to their metatype (thus also get human lifespans (which changling versions should/would also get)

Just a thought i would share......



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BitBasher
post Mar 16 2004, 05:29 AM
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QUOTE
You could also use this to represent people who warn't born to their metatype (thus also get human lifespans (which changling versions should/would also get)
No one gets that anymore, the increased lifespan, or more appropriately not decreased lifespan, only applied to people born physically before either the Awakening or Goblinization. It doesnt apply to modern day in game.
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Shockwave_IIc
post Mar 16 2004, 05:32 AM
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QUOTE (BitBasher)
No one gets that anymore, the increased lifespan, or more appropriately not decreased lifespan, only applied to people born physically before either the Awakening or Goblinization. It doesnt apply to modern day in game.

Didn't realised that, that was canon. My bad. Any comment on the rest?
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Herald of Verjig...
post Mar 16 2004, 06:15 AM
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Yes, the surge trait goblinization is just like the first batch of goblinizations (if the victim was human first).

I don't suggest using the point purchase, some of the costs don't make any sense. The probability of rolling any trait is much more properly balanced, and I suggest all changelings be decided by dice.
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toturi
post Mar 16 2004, 06:24 AM
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QUOTE (BitBasher)
QUOTE
You could also use this to represent people who warn't born to their metatype (thus also get human lifespans (which changling versions should/would also get)
No one gets that anymore, the increased lifespan, or more appropriately not decreased lifespan, only applied to people born physically before either the Awakening or Goblinization. It doesnt apply to modern day in game.

Untrue. The SURGE Edge is Goblinisation. The same as the first waves of UGE. Only people born as the metatype suffer the shorter lifespan.

Edit: Oops. I didn't realised someone else already answered.
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mfb
post Mar 16 2004, 06:53 AM
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can someone find me a book quote where it discusses the lifespans of orks and trolls who goblinized, as compared to those that didn't?
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Ancient History
post Mar 16 2004, 02:36 PM
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It is not stated canonicly anywhere. The closest you can come to it would be in the novel "Never Trust an Elf" as I recall.

Incidentally, I use the Priority system and don't suffer these build-point problems. :P
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mfb
post Mar 16 2004, 03:58 PM
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i could swear that in Never Trust an Elf, it was the opposite--Kham had goblinized, so he had a normal human lifespan; most of the other orks he knew were born as orks, and had the shorter lifespan. that was the whole reason Kham wanted to find out about the magic stone thing he'd seen--he thought it might give the orks a chance at a longer lifespan.
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Wireknight
post Mar 16 2004, 05:55 PM
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No. Khan's grandfather(the leader of the Ork underground) goblinized, which is why he looked just beyond middle-aged while his daughter, Kham's mother, was approaching death from old age. Kham was born an ork, and was, in Never Trust an Elf, only twenty years old.
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mfb
post Mar 17 2004, 02:34 AM
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okay, so i was right--goblinized orks and trolls live out human lifespans, while those born as orks and trolls live shorter lives.
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toturi
post Mar 17 2004, 05:12 AM
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QUOTE (Ancient History)
It is not stated canonicly anywhere. The closest you can come to it would be in the novel "Never Trust an Elf" as I recall.

Incidentally, I use the Priority system and don't suffer these build-point problems. :P

By the book, Ancient, a PC built with Priority could get SURGE effects and it is totally within the realm of possibility to get a 6 point positive SURGE balance only by a 1 point negative SURGE. Which in my book is even more munch. :(
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broho_pcp
post Mar 17 2004, 05:34 AM
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QUOTE (mfb)
okay, so i was right--goblinized orks and trolls live out human lifespans, while those born as orks and trolls live shorter lives.

If by "human lifespans" you mean they die like all the others when I shoot "them." :)
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Large Mike
post Mar 17 2004, 06:01 AM
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Random things are generally not munch, just lucky.
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Herald of Verjig...
post Mar 17 2004, 06:43 AM
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QUOTE (Large Mike)
Random things are generally not munch, just lucky.

As long as the GM watches the dice (or rolls them).
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A Clockwork Lime
post Mar 17 2004, 03:16 PM
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QUOTE (BitBasher)
No one gets that anymore, the increased lifespan, or more appropriately not decreased lifespan, only applied to people born physically before either the Awakening or Goblinization. It doesnt apply to modern day in game.

That's just not true. Humans still goblinize even in the 60's, albeit much more rarely than they did at the dawn of the Sixth World when one out of every ten spontaneously changed within a short span of time. And even then, children were occassionally born as orks or trolls instead of goblinizing, though they were the exception instead of the rule at the time. Even same-race couples can spontaneously give birth to a child of a different race.

So no, "no one gets that anymore" is untrue.
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Shockwave_IIc
post Mar 17 2004, 04:12 PM
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So, it seems you can be a Ork/ Troll with long lifespan, all good. So would pay the additional cost make the "package" viable along with the factthat no direct Intelligence/ Charisma modifiers? (ie same Attribute max's, but standard human race max's) i ask this cos it seems unfair to force a character to suffer a penalty to those stats (though granted to reverse could be argued for the strength/ body increases, though the troll would get the quickness penalties, if only cos it "seems" right)
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Ancient History
post Mar 17 2004, 05:05 PM
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Humans who Goblinize get all the Intelligence/Charisma penalties of the metatype, though you could raise the maximums and buy it back to a "normal" human level.
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Wireknight
post Mar 17 2004, 05:12 PM
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The difference between playing a character who goblinized, versus one who grew up as an ork/troll, isn't a matter of statistics, it's a matter of the character's background and personality. It's not like the changes to physiology only affect the character's physical statistics. If that were the case, then no ork or troll would have mental ability scores lower than the equivalent human. Whatever happens, from goblinizing during life, or goblinizing in the womb, it alters development and imposes all the racial modifiers, positive and negative, mental and physical, upon the character. A born-ork(or troll) shouldn't have a higher(or lower) racial limit/maximum for Intelligence or Charisma, when compared to a goblinized one.

If you really want to play a character who wasn't affected as strongly by the goblinization as a normal member of his race, that's what edges are for. Exceptional Attribute(Intelligence), Exceptional Attribute(Charisma), Bonus Attribute Point, Human-Looking, these can all offset some of the negative aspects of goblinization. No need to create new rules for higher point-cost versions of ork and troll when the existing system has perfectly viable rules for spending more points to purchase edges that would explain such a character's mental attributes and/or social modifiers.
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A Clockwork Lime
post Mar 17 2004, 05:20 PM
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I think that's what Shockwave is getting at. There's very little sense in a character voluntarily taking SURGE and then the Goblinization option, complete with its 15 BP cost, as a means for creating an ork character as opposed to paying just 5 BP and stating he goblinized at around the same time. I think Shockwave is trying to come up with a solution to that perceived problem so as to make it a more viable option.

With those 10 extra points, you could factor in Exceptional Attribute (Charisma and Intelligence), Bonus Attribute Point (Charisma and Intelligence), and Human Looking and still be at a 1 BP disadvantage over a standard Ork character taking the same edges.

Personally, I just get rid of the 5 BP cost for being a Changeling since it's a player's choice if they want to go that route, as the advantages and disadvantages balance out just like Edges & Flaws. I'd then alter Goblinization so that it costs exactly the same as standard races; 5 points for orks and dwarves, 10 points for trolls and elves, and +5 points for metavariants. Honestly, I don't know why they didn't do it that way to begin with. That way, the only difference between an ork and a SURGEd ork is descriptive. Which is exactly how it should be anyway.
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Shockwave_IIc
post Mar 17 2004, 05:37 PM
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Almost clockwork, but not quite.

Their max Int/ Charisma would still be 8/6 (orks/trolls) they just wouldn't suffer the -1/-2 to the values.

But the other issue....
Also granted some times the stats can be represented as "poor upbringing" but not all. cos sure if that was the case you should just able to represent them in the stats example from Becks (granted no no means Canon)
QUOTE
Ghouls
This cost includes all the inherent advantages and
disadvantages of being a ghoul (so you can’t take blind as
a flaw for extra points). Also, as with points, characters do
not have to roll for infection if they are starting as a ghoul
during character creation. It is assumed that the character
comes through with its mind relatively intact—and if not,
then that should be reflected in their attributes during
character creation.


Surely the same would apply. Hence why i believe that it is more a "racial" thing as opposed to a "upbringing" thing.
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A Clockwork Lime
post Mar 17 2004, 05:45 PM
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Right. So by modifying the cost as mentioned in my last post, players would have the option of paying the base cost either way (natural or SURGEd) and being a "real" ork, or paying the base cost plus the cost of certain edges for a more refined/less afflected ork. They then describe the character however they wish, including surviving the goblinization with their mind relatively intact. The costs for either are balanced amongst themselves, and no character or player is getting anything or being cheated out of points over the other.
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Shockwave_IIc
post Mar 17 2004, 06:01 PM
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That was the idea. My only real consern was with trolls who would be getting a bigger benefit. (since it's a 2 point loss as apposed to 1)
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Fahr
post Mar 17 2004, 07:42 PM
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what about those who Surge during gameplay?

there Attributes change but there skills don't, so theoretically you could tweak that to your advantage, spending points on skills and the surgeing so as not to have to [pay for them (so to speak) this is especially true of language and knowledge skills.

If you are playing a Surge'r as a starting char, disallow the Surge costs fo gobli. and just use the races, if it happens during gameplay the numbers are fairly balanced for your troll/orc (IMHO)

-Mike R.
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Arz
post Mar 17 2004, 08:09 PM
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QUOTE (Shockwave_IIc)
Ok via the BP system you can be an ork for 5 BP's for that you get...
+3 Body, +2 Str, -1 Cha, -1 Int and Low light vision plus any racism the GM desides to throw at you.

As A changling you can get the same for a small sum of 15 Bp's (assuming your GM force's you to pay 5 Bp's just to be one.....)

Seems odd.
So i was entertaining the idea of say that if you pay the additional cost then you gain all the benefits of your chosen metatype. BUT the penalties only apply to your attribute max not the actual stat. But then people would be trolls a lot more.... So for trolls you pay another 5 Bp's?

You could also use this to represent people who warn't born to their metatype (thus also get human lifespans (which changling versions should/would also get)

Just a thought i would share......

I think the concept of the changeling is causing you to min/max the numbers. The changling is about appearance and taking advantage of abilities that other metahumans do not have.

Changlings are not quantifiable in the same manner as other metahumans. They should not be getting many straight ability increases. Instead think of taking advantage of the advantages that no one else can get. Just remember that victims of SURGE are not going to be normal.
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