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> Law Enforcement Precinct, What defenses would it have?
CynthiaCM
post Dec 26 2010, 08:18 PM
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We have a situation where the runners are wanting to infiltrate a police precinct building to break out a comrade. It's not Lone Star or Knights Errant, but a smaller law enforcement company called Bassett Security. I downloaded a precinct map off the 'net and plan to simply make alterations to be more appropriate for Shadowrun. Anyway, I have two questions:

1) What defenses would you suggest for the building?

2) What alterations to the map would you suggest? The map can be found here: http://www.pelhampolice.com/plans2.htm

Thanks in advance for your help.
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PoliteMan
post Dec 26 2010, 09:45 PM
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Hmm, I'd say there's basically three layers of security you have to work with.

First off you have the wall. Thick magical wards, scanners, patdowns, but it's not too thick. A lot of people have to come in and out of a police station for one reason or another so they're probably going to have some high quality stuff to scan incomers and keep out unwelcome spirits but they can't afford to spend a lot of time on each person. Thinking checkpoints with drones packing MAD Sensors and the like. Plenty of automated guns sitting around if you misbehave. Pass the check and the drones will fill out simple requests (liscense applications and junk) or direct you to a human if necesary. Think one tough roll but once you pass you're in. This would be the lobby on your map.

Second you've got the general area. Desks, paperwork, distraught parents picking up troublesome teenagers, etc. People have to work here on a daily basis so security should be pretty limited. Add in having a lot of cops around and a lack of really critical stuff, ie anything that would actually be worth the risk of busting into a police station isn't here, and the security equipment should be pretty light.

Then you've got a few high risk areas: Grid overwatch and their Nexi, high-security holding cells, autopool, SWAT assembley area, etc. These are sectioned off areas and their security is corp grade: everyone gets checked, spirits on the watch, everyone is armed and armored. On your map I'd say evidence, computer, armory, and the read cells all would fall under this heading.

I think it's awesome that you have a map like this but I would recommend a few changes:
#1 The computer area needs to be bigger, matrix crime and investigation is going to be much more important.
#2 need a magical investigation/crime section
#3 I would use the future police space area as a general holding cell. There's going to be a lot more people imprissoned in the dystopian future and the only people who warrant their own cells are the ones nasty enough to casually murder their fellow inmates.
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fistandantilus4....
post Dec 27 2010, 10:18 AM
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One of the upticks for 2070s police is that they're going to have to spend a lot less time on traffic enforcement, since most of that is handled by GridGuide and drones. Automatically issued tickets. Nice.

That means that monitoring those drones is going to happen somewhere, most likely at a local dispatch center. And you can bet the precint is monitored as well. I wouldn't be the least bit surprised to have members of a PD equipped with embedded RFID tags or even bio monitors. Hell if I was a 2070s cop, you bet I'd love to have one. That would make infiltration tougher without a very skilled hacker. Also, bluffing is going to be harder as well. Cops really are trained to spot liars, and are used to fast talk.

Limit the number of entry points, some places will have redundant security. Access badges (w/ RFID) will be a must. People coming in won't be anywhere near prisoners, and they will be behind a number of layers of security. Also keep in mind how long said comrade has been held. It wouldn't take too long to ship them off to County.
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Ascalaphus
post Dec 27 2010, 01:31 PM
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I think the place would be like a fortress. Criminals have access to extremely powerful weapons, vehicles, mages, hacking software and crazy nasty implants.
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KamikazePilot
post Dec 27 2010, 02:02 PM
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I dont know how the police is in your area NOW but i cant imagine SR ones being any less secure even for a game setting.

I would force some Common Sense rolls and disauade the team of the suicide mission.
Any breach will not just get the whole police precinct on you but nearby ones will come shortly. the moment the first firefight starts if you are not restrcting the matrix/alarms/ALL comlinks data rest asusred someone wil alert HRT...or just get the SWAT out of the back room to lay down some whoop ass.

If they are helbent on rescuiing him i suggest railroad them into one of these paths:
A: hit the armoured transport bus/van that will take him from the jail to the courhouse for sentencing.
B: blackmail/pay off a cop to do something with official paperwork and get the prisoner released for minor traffic violation instead of whatever crime. maybe the hacker can help dodgy up something too.
C: get the imprisoned dude to fake a heart attack and ahve the team intercept the call to the ambulance and bring your own team disguised as ambos (like in that Eraser movie) and hope whatever spells/ disguises you have and cover stories work long enough to get him out. OR if the police is going to drive him to the hospital themselves then hit the car itransit. (All this asumes they dont have some specialised medkits to handle such emergencies and deny you this option).
D: do someting like handfeeding the runners and say there is a funeral for a fallen comarade at XX hour and all except drones and minor skeleton crew will be at the police station and they have only a few minutes between when the alarm kicks in and reinforcement arive.

Also option F (i think the letter is very appropriate) is always there: Say goodbuy and wish him farewell. roll another character.
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Draco18s
post Dec 27 2010, 03:00 PM
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E. Stage three bank heists at the same time to get everyone out of the office. </not a reference to Leverage at all>
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Ed_209a
post Dec 27 2010, 03:13 PM
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If the Basset is large enough, they might have a central holding facility, for prisoners that are an escape/rescue risk. (like most shadowrunners). This Central Holding would be a fortress, located out of the public eye, and extraterritorial if possible. It could be a full-fledged zero/zero zone.

Once they discover the prisoner is a shadowrunner, Basset would get him to Central ASAP, hopefully before his friends could work up plans & resources to rescue/silence him. If the players can get their act together before Basset can get their act together, that might be another opening for rescue.
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Ascalaphus
post Dec 27 2010, 03:51 PM
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Realism would suggest this is a suicide run: a police precinct is nearly the worst possible target for runners to attack. It's built with criminal enemies in mind, and in SR criminals have mages, hackers, spirits and explosives. So the place is a fortress, and the police response team is already there to boot.

It might be wise to warn your players that a police precinct isn't quite a zero-zone, but that it's among the more dangerous places to attack, and shouldn't be done without legwork and a good plan. No need to fuss around with knowledge checks; this is stuff all characters would know. Just tell the players to take a step back and consider.

Of course, realism has its downsides. It's no fun if getting caught by the cops is practically equivalent to character death.

Better ways to extract a comrade:
- In transit; the building itself is too hard to crack, but prisoner transports might not be
- Sending a fake release order ("This guy is an informant of ours! Release him at once!")
- Favor from someone powerful (leads to a follow-up story...)
- Bribing the cops
- Power lawyer; posting bail
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Backgammon
post Dec 27 2010, 04:49 PM
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A police precinct probably wouldn't be well defended at all, actually. Ever been in a police station? Do you remember seeing automated gun emplacements? No. Lots of cameras? Yes. The defence of a police station is not the immediate security, it is the fact if you do anything you will have the undivided attention of the cops in hunting you down AFTERWARDS.

However, this being the 6th world which is far more violent than today, you can expect more security than there is today. But this depends on a lot of factors:
* Location of the precintct. Is it in the barrens or some toher place where attacks from heavily armed gangs is common? If yes, then sure, make it a bunker.
* Value of contents: What is the value of the stuff inside the precinct? There seems to be a jail of some sort, so the cops can assume some people might want to bust in or out and thus arm appropriately. However, even in this case, it would mostly go back to "easy to get in/out, impossible to hide forever afterwards" type of defence.

So if this is a precinct in a safe part of town with only a smll transitory jail, there will be next to no hard defences. Just lots of sensors. Also, everyone is armed. Don't forget that part. Even the freakin receptionist is packin and knows how to use it. SOP in case of attack would be to bunker down and pin down opponent if possible, then wait for backup.
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Draco18s
post Dec 27 2010, 05:14 PM
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Police stations are veritable bunkers: everyone in the building is a frakking cop.
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kzt
post Dec 27 2010, 08:37 PM
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The idea that someone might attack a police station is the kind of thing that cops actually do consider. So they are normally designed to stop a couple of guys with SMGs from shooting the place up, with armored barriers, doors with access control, cameras, etc.

I'd expect that there are cameras all over the place, inside and outside, that are recorded and directly viewable at another site. And yes, this is about the highest profile thing you can do and will get a LOT of response very fast. If nothing else, cars full of armed cops are typically coming and going all the time.

Typically there are only a few cells at a precinct house because everyone gets transported to a central site (detention center, jail, etc) pretty fast. The cells are for holding people who got arrested but the transport hasn't shown up. Transport is either in a police car or a prisoner transport vehicle.

It would be kind of amusing, in a sick and twisted way, if the PCs attack the precinct house and found that the other PC had been moved to the metro detention center two hours earlier. Which is now on REALLY high alert and certain correlation are being made between prisoners arrested and when.
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KamikazePilot
post Dec 28 2010, 01:44 AM
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QUOTE (Backgammon @ Dec 28 2010, 03:49 AM) *
A police precinct probably wouldn't be well defended at all, actually. Ever been in a police station? Do you remember seeing automated gun emplacements? No. Lots of cameras? Yes. The defence of a police station is not the immediate security, it is the fact if you do anything you will have the undivided attention of the cops in hunting you down AFTERWARDS.

...snip...


I dont know what police station you have been in and the above may hold true for outback small towns with 1-2 officers policing the whole town. In such places 1 small building with 1-2 offices or one shared common office and 1 receptionist desk is all you get. the back part is usualy always a bunker type (equivalent to a bank vault) construction for the jail. In small places this only houses the local drunks or small criminals. so breaking into these is piss easy. subdue the 2 officers and bobs your uncle.

However moving onto a more urban precinct and things turn ugly rather fast.
The one i went in had a front receptionist zone which was a big long bench with security doors on each end that clearly separates the foyer to the police station. this had a vending machine and lots of benches. in SR i would make the front door a security lockdown type of door with no sensors because police officers use it daily and with so many in an out scans triggering the beep noise the receptionist/officer will go crazy and start killing people themselves. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

The two side doors would be MAD equipped and the entry to the behind are would be conterolled by these 2 (sometimes even 1) bottleneck.
of course thats the public interface (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) police have also access to the motorpool direct entry doors and side doors to maybe specialised departments. you dont want joe blogs sitting on the benches pretending he waits for a XXX detective and information gathering about all 'civilians' that go behind the security door and selling that info to whoever may have issues with undercover police or want to exact revenge on SWAT members etc etc.

The cowboy option though given the fortresslike design would include a hefty amount of C4 or better against the wall near the jail cells and hope you dont blow into your friends cell and hope you can get him out fast enough before HRT from 2 offices away comes down on you.
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fistandantilus4....
post Dec 28 2010, 02:00 AM
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QUOTE (KamikazePilot @ Dec 27 2010, 09:44 PM) *
The cowboy option though given the fortresslike design would include a hefty amount of C4 or better against the wall near the jail cells and hope you dont blow into your friends cell and hope you can get him out fast enough before HRT from 2 offices away comes down on you.

Any place built with defense in mind is going to have some stand off space. Typically at least 50 feet from where vehicles are going to park to the building its self for starters. Typically the easiest way to do that is to have grass out front and/or cement planter boxes or stone bollards. That keeps the discreet drop offs from happening. Sure a guy coudl walk up and put something next to it, but police and very aware of "suspicious packages", especially ones in senstive areas. Getting next to a wall where prisoners might be kept is going to require multiple layers of securtiy. Even if those layers are something more mundane such as grass -> Wall -> Tall chain link fence w/ concertina wire, that's going to decrease their chance of doing it discreetly. In a world where people can fly and drones are prevelant, there's going to be even more security arond prisoners.

Also, keep in mind some of hte man hunts that have made the news in the last few years. Kill a cop, and things get much more sever. Attack a precint, especially in a place like Seattle, and they're all going to end up dead or in jail with their buddy, unless they're very good. A change of tactics would probably be a good first step for the runners. Besides, sometimes PCs go down, sometimes they go to jail. It's a good learning lesson.
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KamikazePilot
post Dec 28 2010, 02:32 AM
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QUOTE (fistandantilus4.0 @ Dec 28 2010, 01:00 PM) *
Any place built with defense in mind is going to have some stand off space. Typically at least 50 feet from where vehicles are going to park to the building its self for starters. Typically the easiest way to do that is to have grass out front and/or cement planter boxes or stone bollards. That keeps the discreet drop offs from happening. Sure a guy coudl walk up and put something next to it, but police and very aware of "suspicious packages", especially ones in senstive areas. Getting next to a wall where prisoners might be kept is going to require multiple layers of securtiy. Even if those layers are something more mundane such as grass -> Wall -> Tall chain link fence w/ concertina wire, that's going to decrease their chance of doing it discreetly. In a world where people can fly and drones are prevelant, there's going to be even more security arond prisoners.

Also, keep in mind some of hte man hunts that have made the news in the last few years. Kill a cop, and things get much more sever. Attack a precint, especially in a place like Seattle, and they're all going to end up dead or in jail with their buddy, unless they're very good. A change of tactics would probably be a good first step for the runners. Besides, sometimes PCs go down, sometimes they go to jail. It's a good learning lesson.


absolutely right.

The first thing you learn about management/leadership is the ability to let things go. So the 'leader' of the PC group may have to learn to cut his losses and move on.
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kzt
post Dec 28 2010, 03:02 AM
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No, he hires a lawyer. The right lawyer get him charged with firing a gun inside city limits and possession of burglary tools. $500 fine, 30 days (suspended) and 6 months probation.

This assumes he didn't kill anyone, particularly a cop.
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Backgammon
post Dec 28 2010, 01:29 PM
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QUOTE (kzt @ Dec 27 2010, 10:02 PM) *
No, he hires a lawyer. The right lawyer get him charged with firing a gun inside city limits and possession of burglary tools. $500 fine, 30 days (suspended) and 6 months probation.

This assumes he didn't kill anyone, particularly a cop.


Yeah, I'd consider doing it that way. I think a lot of players assume caught == tear up character sheet. I'd show the players that in the 6th world (and even in ours!) getting caught is hardly the end. Pay a shark lawyer a bit, he does his stuff, bam the character is let go on a technicality. Or, he's released on probabation, character gets a new SIN - boom, he's scott free. Really, for Shadowrunners, you just gotta get out on bail, and then you immediately disapear as you change SIN.
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Ascalaphus
post Dec 28 2010, 01:44 PM
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It's about having a repertoire of solutions. Most players don't have one when they begin playing; these aren't everyday problems. D&D teaches a brute-force dungeon-clearing repertoire, but that isn't so useful in SR. The tactics I noted earlier are more suited to a society where the State (or whoever they hire this week) outgun the PCs. You need to adapt your tactics to the fact that institutions work according to rules, and those can be manipulated.
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Cthulhudreams
post Dec 28 2010, 03:44 PM
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Please note that the provided map is actually a real police station today. Google maps tells me that Pelham city police have a delightful small town and are probably puzzled by the HUGE number of hits on their map right now. Anyway.

As the map demonstrates, real police stations today are not that heavily defended because anyone serious gets moved on to a secure holding facility as fast as possible and no-one is going to launch an armed assault to get out some guy being held overnight on a DUI. This might not apply in a seedy area of baltimore or whatever but I've never lived anywhere like that so no experience with that sort of area.

The real difference between that map and 2070 is that in the future, someone took community policing outside and set it on fire before beating it to death. A shadow run police station is going to look more like a military installation crossed with a SS brown house. These guys have a stated explicit history of 'disappearing' people they don't like. I'd start by looking to either of those two sources rather than a small town police station.

Seriously, I'd expect it wouldn't even have the current lobby area that you see in all police stations - the Gestapo doesn't want anyone coming in!
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Ascalaphus
post Dec 28 2010, 04:14 PM
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In SR, gangsters have assault rifles and the occasional RPG. Grenades are cheap and easily available. Therefore police precincts need to be pretty sturdy, otherwise they'd get blown up as soon as they pissed off a nearby major gang. And rebuilding every three months isn't cost-effective at all. (Remember: all these precincts are private sector, they care about cost.)
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Doc Chase
post Dec 28 2010, 04:53 PM
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I avoided posting here because I found the idea of assaulting a police precinct to be abhorrent - but then I wondered what exactly this runner did to end up in the clink.

I wonder this because in 205X, law enforcement is a business. The NYPD incorporated, Lone Star Security Services maintains high profile contracts, and Knight-Errant Security just stole the Seattle contract and started shaking things up.

Why couldn't a bribe get him out of there? I don't see any reason why LEO's stopped hating paperwork, and setting up a criminal SIN for the SINless is going to be a hell of a hassle - plus all the booking, the pictures, the fingerprints, the full cavity searches - when all they really want to do is grab a coffee, maybe a donut and drive around for awhile.

Maybe your cops can be bought. A wad of paper that represents half a year's salary to these guys could go a long way to making the invisible man in cell #4 stay invisible, but breathing. He might not get those toys back, they might keep his fingerprints around just in case - but he just might get a second chance due to a 'paperwork error during prisoner transfer'.
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fistandantilus4....
post Dec 28 2010, 07:31 PM
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QUOTE (Doc Chase @ Dec 28 2010, 12:53 PM) *
Why couldn't a bribe get him out of there? I don't see any reason why LEO's stopped hating paperwork, and setting up a criminal SIN for the SINless is going to be a hell of a hassle - plus all the booking, the pictures, the fingerprints, the full cavity searches - when all they really want to do is grab a coffee, maybe a donut and drive around for awhile.

I dunno, these days, a precint gets a percentage of every citation they issue (Sheriff's go to county, PD to the city). I could well see an actual quota system in SR, or an amount paid per person brought in and charged. Jails are also paid by the inmate, so if the same corp that operates the police operates the penetentiary, you could very well have a hike in arrests>jail because of the profits in it. Policing is a business, and if the business doesn't deliver their product, they don't do a very good businesss. Especially in 2070s Seattle where KE is trying to make a good name for themselves.

That doesn't mean that said runner can't be shuffled aside for other reasons, maybe offered a deal to accept a tracker of even a kink bomb, and do a little deniable assets work. They're not stupid, they know a guy with no SIN and packed with 'ware has means, and wouldl ikely skip bail. They'd either strip his illegal ware, saddle him with a ciminal SIN, identify him as a high flight risk and deny him bail, or put him to work for them.
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Brainpiercing7.6...
post Dec 29 2010, 01:35 PM
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Personally if I were a private police force and had just caught a shadowrunner, I would start calling up some "friends" in other corps who might want to "buy" him.

About the precinct itself I would assume the following:

Security depends very much on area. Even then, the municipalities don't have a lot of money left over to pay for security, because all the big corps probably aren't paying any taxes - which just leaves the joe averages working for them. Which also means that security is always a matter of "what it's worth to the customer".

In a well-to-do area, of course the precinct will be well protected, and filled with well payed, motivated officers. However, I would expect the precinct to match the surroundings - discreet, attractive architecture, like an administrative building. Security should also be quite discreet.

In a normal residential area, I would expect security to be entirely based on value for money, and the officers themselves to be underpaid and overworked - or, they might not work too much at all. Quality of service depends very much on who's buying. That doesn't mean that the security of the station itself is necessarily low, it's just that basically everything is running on a tight budget. So fancy stuff just isn't available, and I would even question the presence of mages on station. Security should be rugged, but without finesse. Also the cops themselves should be of low professionality and with low motivation to stick their necks out.

The only places I would expect fortress-like precincts is in really bad areas, which are basically not patrolled by officers on foot, and where the police never leaves the building with less than a citymaster. Here they basically shed all semblance of being a service provider, and the populace is openly seen as basically just a risk, nothing else.
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Daishi
post Dec 29 2010, 04:32 PM
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What are the threats that cops in 2070 are worried about?
- Thieves looking to steal from the motor pool, armory or evidence locker.
- Criminals looking to muck with cases.
- In rougher neighbourhoods, gangs may occasionally try to assert themselves against the police.
- Police locations housing classified databases, major evidence lockers (e.g. multi-million drug busts), or likely to hold well-connected criminals will actually be concerned with runner teams.

What are their constraints?
- Policing is a business. Protecting the precinct house is an expense to be minimized.
- Policing depend on public support. Looking or acting too much like a military installation can limit public cooperation, and in the wrong part of town it could even cost a company contract renewals.
- People are constantly moving in and out of police locations. Visitors can be funneled through a checkpoint system, but the cops themselves need quick access.
- Police facilities often see a lot of undercover cops and criminal informants passing through. Large surveillance gaps inside the facility are probably a good idea for that purpose. The only places that would likely see a lot of internal surveillance measures would be the lobby and the holding/interrogation areas (both for security and liability purposes).

In most cases the primary protection for a police facility is having a building full of suspicious, armed, semi-trained individuals. The secondary protection for a police facility is the ability to call in for back up by the metric tonne. That is enough to deter most criminals from taking on a precinct house, and since all those personnel are a sunk cost for the corp, I'm sure they'd want to leave it at that as much as possible.

To keep out the riff-raff, some sturdy construction and solid surveillance should be enough. Fencing around the motor pool (or an underground parkade), a mix of obvious and concealed cameras watching the exterior approaches and especially entrances, alarms on the doors and windows. Employee access points would probably be security doors with rating 4-6 passkey maglocks. No need for any scanners at those entrances since they would be tripped all the time. Once inside, most areas would have fairly routine security with basic door locks and no surveillance. Prisoner areas would have more durable construction, constant surveillance (except for lawyer visits) and probably employ at least some remote door controls. The armory is another area with better construction and a better maglock. The evidence locker is the same, and probably has a much smaller number of staff authorized for access. Probably add some biometics for the latter two.

If there is a risk of car-bombing, the landscaping around the facility will be designed to restrict the approach of unauthorized vehicles. A combination of plascrete planters and pop-up obstacles should be enough. Magical security is probably just a couple bound spirits patrolling the perimeter to scare off any interlopers. Depending on the contents, the evidence room might have a basic ward on it. Matrix security is probably some observe and report IC with a single spider if the facility is large enough. The big idea is to centralize specialists and just call in for the cavalry from headquarters. The front lobby is where all visitors will need to check in. A large waiting area, front desk (behind armored glass in rougher areas), armed guards, MAD & cyberware scanners and a few olfactory scanners. It would probably also have the capacity to lock down with reinforced door panels and possibly a stun gas system. Visitors can expect to be escorted from the lobby to their destination as standard policy unless they're regular visitors.

That's probably the basics of most police facilities. Rougher areas probably have sturdier construction, and some armed drones on local standby to drive off a ganger attack, but that's all they would need. A headquarters facility might add an additional layer of similar if higher quality security for critical areas. If the facility is temporarily housing a well-connected high-risk criminal or a large evidence haul, the SOP is probably just to beef up the on-site personnel. A mage, a matrix security specialist, and possibly a tactical team on standby would be enough. An FRT ready to roll is a good way to intimidate most runners from making a move.

Specialized facilities could vary a lot from this. High-value evidence storage might rely more on obscurity than obvious security. Bury those drugs in a section of the archive building that only a dozen people know about and who cares how tough the door is. Prisoner facilities will depend on more obvious physical protection (walls, lights, concertina wire, armed perimeter guards), security in depth and above all, a rigorous system of procedures for moving through the layers of security.

On the whole, I think that unless the police expect it, a good runner team should be able to slice through the average precinct house. The big issues to be managed are 1) the short window before discovery and lots of reinforcements and 2) the spectacular heat that could come raining down afterwards.
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RSS Lo-Fi Version Time is now: 28th March 2024 - 11:22 PM

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