 War! Kills Seamen, Please, think of the seamen! |
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 Dec 27 2010, 07:41 AM
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#1
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Great Dragon  Group: Members Posts: 5,542 Joined: 30-September 08 From: D/FW Megaplex Member No.: 16,387  |
Ignoring the multiple grammatical errors and misspelled words I've found (but unfortunately not documented... I'll get to that some time) in WAR!, the book so far is a great read with lots of fun information in it. Let's also ignore the strange availability/cost problem (a 26F drone that's only 1.9k (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) ? Really?) for the moment. What we're left with is a very interesting problem in the new naval vessels section: ballast tanks. Now, these are not neccessarily indicative of a problem, but they are when they're added to nearly every ship (and by nearly I mean all but one) and only the submarine has life support. What does that mean? That means that when the Aircraft Carrier or the 120,000 metric ton cargo ship submerge all the seamen on board (and passangers, if any) drown if they don't have SCUBA gear.
Really? I mean, come on, they couldn't catch at least that one? Although the ability to have a missile boat or aircraft carrier rise up out of the ocean as a sneak attack is greatly amusing, it would be better if the ships in question at least kept "skeleton crew" as a more figurative term. |
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Dec 27 2010, 07:50 AM
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#2
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,373 Joined: 14-January 10 From: Stuttgart, Germany Member No.: 18,036 |
Why are you running the shadows? - Because with War! my job on the USS Munchkin became much more dangerous and so I transfered into the Seattle shadows.
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Dec 27 2010, 08:39 AM
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#3
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 821 Joined: 4-December 09 Member No.: 17,940 |
I don't have the 'War' book and can't comment on how ballast tanks are handled in the rules, but IRLballast tanks aren't limited to submarines. They're not large enough to ubmerge the ship but offers a way to balance a ship when it's cargo isn't. It's also a way to improve a ship's handling when traveling light.
In a warship they make sense as they allow to prevent listing when battle damage floods some of the ship's compatiments - without flooding more parts of the ship. |
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Dec 27 2010, 08:46 AM
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#4
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Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
QUOTE (Neraph @ Dec 27 2010, 03:41 PM)  Really? I mean, come on, they couldn't catch at least that one? I am not surprised. Take a look at Running Wild. Many of the paracritter fishes do not have Gills. |
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Dec 27 2010, 08:51 AM
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#5
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,542 Joined: 30-September 08 From: D/FW Megaplex Member No.: 16,387 |
QUOTE (Manunancy @ Dec 27 2010, 02:39 AM) I don't have the 'War' book and can't comment on how ballast tanks are handled in the rules, but IRLballast tanks aren't limited to submarines. They're not large enough to ubmerge the ship but offers a way to balance a ship when it's cargo isn't. It's also a way to improve a ship's handling when traveling light. IRL sure. In Shadowrun, however, "Ballast tanks are neccessary to turn any watercraft into a submersible, allowing the vehicle to submerge and, more importantly, rise to the surface afterward." Arsenal, page 133. |
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Dec 27 2010, 09:11 AM
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#6
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The King In Yellow Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,922 Joined: 26-February 05 From: JWD Member No.: 7,121 |
It's indicative of the depth of research and thinking that went into this. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)
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Dec 27 2010, 09:49 AM
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#7
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,248 Joined: 14-October 10 Member No.: 19,113 |
QUOTE Ballast tanks are neccessary to turn any watercraft into a submersible, That may be true (I don't know I will ask my Naval Architect friend when I next see him. However a statement of this form does not mean that every thing with ballast tanks is a submersible. In real life many things are necessary but not sufficient, and I suspect this is true here: for example I think I would need watertight doors, a pressure hull, and a suitable propulsion system to make a submarine, as well as ballast tanks. |
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Dec 27 2010, 11:13 AM
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#8
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Great Dragon Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 5,082 Joined: 3-October 09 From: Kohle, Stahl und Bier Member No.: 17,709 |
QUOTE (Seth @ Dec 27 2010, 10:49 AM) That may be true (I don't know I will ask my Naval Architect friend when I next see him. However a statement of this form does not mean that every thing with ballast tanks is a submersible. You should have read the sentence you quoted further than the first comma (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) Per RAW, ballast tanks are a mod to turn a vehicle into a submersible. Even better, all those craft come with level 2 Ballast Tanks, and "Level 2 is a full pressure hull that allows the submersible to travel to all but the deepest or most hostile environments". So don't piss off the captain, or he'll keelhaul the whole ship (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) |
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Dec 27 2010, 11:38 AM
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#9
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The King In Yellow Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,922 Joined: 26-February 05 From: JWD Member No.: 7,121 |
Well! Since required reading for prospective SR authors now is the SR4A base rules and the Almanac, you get what you can expect.
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Dec 27 2010, 01:23 PM
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#10
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Great Dragon Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 5,082 Joined: 3-October 09 From: Kohle, Stahl und Bier Member No.: 17,709 |
Given the amount of canon and rules violations, that would be just formalizing the status quo...
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Dec 27 2010, 01:49 PM
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#11
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,536 Joined: 13-July 09 Member No.: 17,389 |
QUOTE (Manunancy @ Dec 27 2010, 03:39 AM) I don't have the 'War' book and can't comment on how ballast tanks are handled in the rules, but IRLballast tanks aren't limited to submarines. They're not large enough to ubmerge the ship but offers a way to balance a ship when it's cargo isn't. It's also a way to improve a ship's handling when traveling light. When my father used to work at the steel mill, every once in awhile he and others would have to go out on a raft to remove the screws. Heavy suckers. Anyway, the ships that they had to work on either had ballast tanks or had a lot of their load shifted to the front of the ship in order to raise the screws out of the water so that work could be done. I'm now reminded of the scene from Indiana Jones: The Last Crusader where their little power boat is getting chopped up by a larger ship's screws... I think I could adapt that into a possible offensive strategy in Shadowrun.... something involving a naval vessel with 4 screws with more stern of the other two..... use the forward screws to propel the ship in reverse... use ballast tanks to raise the stern-most screws just out of the water... brilliant! |
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Dec 27 2010, 05:23 PM
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#12
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,542 Joined: 30-September 08 From: D/FW Megaplex Member No.: 16,387 |
My entire point is that while in the real world it should be expected to have ballast tanks, in Shadowrun ballast tanks have a specific function, and that is turning the vehicle into a submercible. By the RAW, that 120,000 metric ton cargo ship can rapidly dive to a fair depth, as can the aircraft carrier and missile boat. And everyone on board drowns since it doesn't have Life Support.
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Dec 27 2010, 05:29 PM
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#13
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Old Man of the North Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 9,643 Joined: 14-August 03 From: Just north of the Centre of the Universe Member No.: 5,463 |
Even for Dumpshock this is a silly argument.
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Dec 27 2010, 05:32 PM
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#14
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Moving Target Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 583 Joined: 1-October 09 From: France Member No.: 17,693 |
That is probably a case of bad copy/paste and no proof-reading (which sound like the norm for that book...) rather than an intended design feature.
Still, since with Ballast Tanks 2 the ships are assumed to have a pressure hull, the crew - like the cargo - would be inside it and thus not immersed in water. They will run out of oxygen and suffer from poor air quality thanks to the absence of life support, but I don't think they would die immediately by drowning. |
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Dec 27 2010, 06:18 PM
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#15
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 540 Joined: 5-May 09 From: California Member No.: 17,140 |
QUOTE (pbangarth @ Dec 27 2010, 09:29 AM) Even for Dumpshock this is a silly argument. Really? I thought it was rather watered down in comparison to some of the others (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) I have no regrets about that. |
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Dec 27 2010, 06:22 PM
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#16
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,179 Joined: 10-June 10 From: St. Louis, UCAS/CAS Border Member No.: 18,688 |
QUOTE (WyldKnight @ Dec 27 2010, 06:18 PM) Really? I thought it was rather watered down in comparison to some of the others (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) I have no regrets about that. Careful, Wyld. I wouldn't want you to get in over your head. Moo hooo hooo ha ha ha |
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Dec 27 2010, 06:26 PM
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#17
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 540 Joined: 5-May 09 From: California Member No.: 17,140 |
I'm trying not to but this whole thread is starting to smell a little fishy.
On the subject though we see what they were trying to do, editing just screwed up on it like it did with a lot of things. At least this one actually makes sense and shows they tried to do some research. |
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Dec 27 2010, 06:29 PM
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#18
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Deus Absconditus Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,742 Joined: 1-September 03 From: Downtown Seattle, UCAS Member No.: 5,566 |
I am in agreement with Dahrken's assesment of the situation. Please reference my signature for my opinion on the argument itself.
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Dec 27 2010, 08:10 PM
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#19
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,654 Joined: 29-October 06 Member No.: 9,731 |
Pun Police, nobody move! WyldKnight, Doc Chase, you are both under arrest for Grievous Abuse of the English Language, and Assault with a Deadly Pun. You have the right to remain silent. If you choose to waive that right, for the love of great Cthulhu at least spare us the horrible jokes. You have the right to legal counsel. If you cannot afford an attorney, well, sucks to be you.
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Dec 27 2010, 08:15 PM
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#20
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 540 Joined: 5-May 09 From: California Member No.: 17,140 |
I got to say the tide of justice is hard to fight indeed.
I'll be calling my lawyer now. |
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Dec 27 2010, 08:16 PM
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#21
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 252 Joined: 11-June 10 Member No.: 18,694 |
Mind the pundertow.
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Dec 27 2010, 08:21 PM
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#22
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,536 Joined: 13-July 09 Member No.: 17,389 |
QUOTE (Tanegar @ Dec 27 2010, 03:10 PM) You have the right to legal counsel. If you cannot afford an attorney, well, sucks to be you. "FREEZE! You're under arrest! You have the right to the remains of a silent attorney! If you cannot afford one... tough noogies! You can make ONE phone call! I recommend Trixie: 976-Triple 5-LOVE. Do you understand these rights as I have explained them to you?! Well do ya, PUNK?" |
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Dec 27 2010, 08:21 PM
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#23
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Old Man of the North Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 9,643 Joined: 14-August 03 From: Just north of the Centre of the Universe Member No.: 5,463 |
That's swell! No matter how the rest of us shore up our defenses, we continue to be inundated with dry humour. The best we can do is take it all with a grain of salt.
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Dec 27 2010, 08:22 PM
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#24
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
put a trifork in me, i'm done...
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Dec 27 2010, 08:25 PM
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#25
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Shooting Target Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 1,989 Joined: 28-July 09 From: Somewhere along the brazilian coast Member No.: 17,437 |
Oh my god, I'm being drowned by bad puns.
Some one throw me a float. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif) |
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