Covert-ops adept build- will it work?, New to SR4A, looking for char-gen advice. Options

[Foxwander]

Our group just started a game (using the 20th anniversary rulebook) and while I've got 20+ years experience gaming (all D&D editions plus GURPS, WoD, d6 Star Wars and several others) I haven't tried SR since 2nd edition and I'm worried that my character isn't all it can be. The rest of the party consists of an oni street-sam, a human rigger, and an elf utility mage/face. I gen'd up an ork covert-ops adept and while my character is [/i]interesting[/i], I'm concerned about how effective I'll be.

The thing is, after our first two short sessions, it's obvious the other characters have something they are awesome at (shooting things, rigging/hacking, and social respectively) with boatloads of dice to back their shtick up. While my character could kill someone with anything I can throw- I've yet to actually hit someone to show that off. Plus, after reading a few threads here, I'm pretty sure there are some aspects of the game I'm overlooking. That there are things my character will really need to be able to do vs. what I think he'll need to do and I've missed that in my read thru of the rules.

Anyway, I tweaked my character a bit and I think I've done a pretty good job, but I'd really appreciate a look-thru and some advice from the experience available here to see if I've made an effective build for my concept. One quick note though: I really want to avoid just cybering up or going full mage to do this (which was mainly the advice I got on another board) because I don't want to just copy what we already have in the party. That said, if I really have gimped my character I'll change what I have to. Thanks. Full build is in the spoiler...

[ Spoiler ]

Metatype: Ork [20]

Attributes: [180]
B: 5 (10)
A: 5 (40)
R: 4 (30)
S: 4 (10)
C: 2 (10)
I: 4 (30)
L: 4 (30)
W: 3 (20)

Ess: 6
Mag: 5 [40]
Edge: 2 [10]

Positive Qualities: [25]
Adept (5)
Martial Arts (Krav Maga- Take Aim & Ready Weapon as free actions) (10)
Blandness (10)

Negative Qualities: [-35]
Allergy (Mild, Pollutants) (-10)
Nano-intolerance (-5)
Scorched (-5)
SINner (-5)
Poor Self Control (Thrill-seeker) (-5)
Vendetta (Corp) (-5)

Adept Powers: (w/ Geas for 25% cost reduction)
Improved Reflexes 2
Missile Mastery
Power Throw 4
Eidetic Sense Memory
Three-Dimensional Memory
Multi-Tasking
Magic Sense

Active Skills: [136]
Electronics Group: 2 (20)
Climbing: 1 (4)
Con: 1 (4)
Escape Artist: 2 (8 )
Etiquette: 1 (4)
Gymnastics: 4 (16)
Infiltration: 3 (12)
Locksmith: 1 (4)
Palming: 1 (4)
Perception: 4 (16)
Pilot Ground Craft: 1 (4)
Running: 1 (4)
Shadowing: 1 (4)
Throwing Weapons: 6 (24)
Unarmed Combat: 2 (8 )

Knowledge Skills/Languages: (24 free)
Vendetta Corp: 2
Street Gangs: 1
Criminal Organizations: 2
LoneStar Procedures: 2
Chemistry: 1
History: 1
Architecture: 1
Security Procedures: 4
Security Design: 3
Zen Philosophy: 2
Drawing: 1

Japanese: N
English: 3
Or'zet: 1

Contacts: (2x CHA free house rule) [10]
Pawnbroker (Loyalty 3, Connection 3) (6)
Spider (Loyalty 5, Connection 3) (8 )

Resources: (70,000) [14]
Full gear list is available if anyone cares. Highlights include...
- Armor- Urban explorer + FFBA half-suit + Secure PPP w/ thermal damping and non-conductivity mods
- Grappling gun w/ myomeric rope and gecko-tipped drone crawler "hook" (replaced cyberhand w/ drone/grappling hand mod)
- Lots of throwing knives, trick shuriken (stand-ins for trick arrowheads- stick'n'shock, explosive, incendiary), billiard balls (for range), and an assortment of grenades for when the crap hits the fan
- All the expected thiefly gear

[Cain]

In SR4.5, you're generally better off with fewer skills at higher ratings. And as a minor quibble, Blandness and a low Charisma usually don't go together. You might want to consider Erased instead.

If you want to be good at something unique, focus on the B&E and stealth skills. You're not a kill machine, you're a strike and fade/get into the locked room type of guy.

[WyldKnight]

I would advise some implants. In one point of essence it's possible to fit a synthacardium 3, muscle toner 2, and attention co processor 3. That's a lot of extra dice for losing a point of magic.

[Magus]

Power Throw is capped at 3 per SM errata. So you will need to change that.

[Zyerne]

I believe it's 1 geas per reduced cost power. 7 of them is a lot to be running around with.

[WyldKnight]

Not if their simple ones. I mean any fair GM won't force him to do a big one per power like Mages have for their whole skill set.

[Saint Sithney]

A mild allergy to pollutants will give you -2 dice to all actions, basically every second you spend outside.
Not worth it.

As has been said, adepts need implants to be their best. You can still play a character without a point of bio/cyber, but you're missing out on some essential goodness.

[Foxwander]

Ok, a lot to respond to- hope multiquote is the way to go with this...

In SR4.5, you're generally better off with fewer skills at higher ratings. And as a minor quibble, Blandness and a low Charisma usually don't go together. You might want to consider Erased instead.

What's wrong with Blandness and low charisma? Blandness makes you forgettable and helps you blend into a crowd, which is exactly what I want as a thief. How does charisma tie into it?

I would advise some implants. In one point of essence it's possible to fit a synthacardium 3, muscle toner 2, and attention co processor 3. That's a lot of extra dice for losing a point of magic.

Yeah, it's looking like I'll have to take some cyber to be at all effective. And those are pretty good ideas for my concept (on another forum I got similar suggestions that would have made me the cyber-twin of our street sam). Plus- it allows me to get back the cyber-hand I originally stat'd out (if it's alpha grade). With the grapple gun hand mod I had the idea that I could do some pseudo spiderman tricks. You know, grab a ledge and quickly drop down to street level, or get to the rooftops for a parkour getaway. Or anything else where throwing a hand across the room would be useful. I just have to squeeze the (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) for this from somewhere. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/indifferent.gif)

Power Throw is capped at 3 per SM errata. So you will need to change that.

Well, that.... sucks. Maybe I can hide that from the GM. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) Eh, I'll put the points into Sustenance- it'll give me time for this next one...

I believe it's 1 geas per reduced cost power. 7 of them is a lot to be running around with.

My thought was that all the powers would be tied to the same type of geas- in this case, ritual meditation. It would just take that much longer. Even though my GM is on board with that, is that actually breaking the rules? Just curious.

A mild allergy to pollutants will give you -2 dice to all actions, basically every second you spend outside.

I thought to wear a breathmask and googles most of the time. Any other ideas for a non-cheesy 10 point neg-quality? What about "day job"? I had the idea also that my character's main cover (for getting into places and scouting around) would be a street/bike messenger. With "day job" that wouldn't just be a cover. And the extra (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) couldn't hurt.


Good advice so far- thanks. Please keep it coming.

Also- this is the second time I've heard that I should get fewer skills and better ratings. Any advice on the core skills a good thief/covert-ops guy should focus in? I'm not quite sure what the best B/E skills are in Shadowrun.

[Cain]

What's wrong with Blandness and low charisma? Blandness makes you forgettable and helps you blend into a crowd, which is exactly what I want as a thief. How does charisma tie into it?

Blandness makes you forgettable, but the ability to blend into a crowd is the Shadowing skill. If you're going to stat-dump charisma, Blandness isn't an optimal choice, because being forgettable is a social skill. Erased is a better one for you-- Shadowing to avoid being noticed, Erased to minimize the damage from it.

Also- this is the second time I've heard that I should get fewer skills and better ratings. Any advice on the core skills a good thief/covert-ops guy should focus in? I'm not quite sure what the best B/E skills are in Shadowrun.

Without a book handy, stealth skills and Hardware are what you should be focusing on. Stealth to get to the door, Electronics to open it.

[Makki]

I think your build is pretty good. some ideas:

-maybe drop con (not enough Cha) and escape artist (never needed) and get the Stealth group at 3
-Three-Dimensional Memory and Multi-Tasking are not really worth the cost, get Combat Sense 2 instead.
-I'm not sure Blandness works well for Orks, maybe better off with Human looking
-drop logic and get another Str point


raise Edge with your first 15 points of karma

[Jareth Valar]

Prime example of the adepts need implants to be their best is the option of Synaptic Boosters R2 vs. Improved Reflexes R2. Synaptic Boosters at that level would cost you 1 point of Magic "loss" and is allot more cost effective (Magic wise ONLY here) than Improved Reflexes at the equivalent level, and the bonuses are identical. Downside, however, is the fact they would cost you 160,000 Nuyen and therefore 32 more BP. But you could lower your Magic a point or 2 to help a little.

Also, with Vendetta, there is 1 thing you are missing.

The character must also take the Enemy quality (with an Incidence rating of at least 4).

Also, with Power Throw being capped at 3, yeah, it kind of does limit the upper possibilities, but it doesn't suck as much as all that. Think about this:
Strength of 4, Power Throw 3, and Missile Mastery nets you the following abilities
- Any object lying around --- Damage: 2P + 3 more for Power Throw for a total of 5P (same damage as a Heavy Pistol)
- Shuriken --- Damage 2P + 3 more for Power Throw and +1 for Missile Mastery for a total of 6P (same damage as an Assault Rifle)
- Throwing Knife --- Damage 3P + 3 more for Power Throw and +1 for Missile Mastery for a total of 7P (same damage as a Shotgun)
While you do not have the range or AP of same said weapons, you have a MUCH better chance of having the damage potential in areas of the game the other characters might be denied assets.

I might also suggest Quick Draw as an Adept Power as opposed to Krav Maga's Ready Weapon. Quick Draw lets you ready AND throw your weapon in the same action (assuming you make a skill+Rea (2) test), thus leaving you your free action for something more important.

These are things I have had to deal with in my game. One of my players has an elf very similar to your build and he has been devastatingly effective. Not overly so, but he is almost NEVER unarmed, not when you/he can pick up a rock, room key, skittle..."feel the rainbow". (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotfl.gif) Yes, my player used that one in game.

<EDIT>
Fixed some typo's and...

Also think on the above Power Throw combination. Your MAX range with a Shuriken is actually FARTHER than a Heavy Pistol. Strx7 Str 4, +6 Powerr Throw=10x7= 70m and your Short range is DOUBLE that of a pistol (10m as opposed to 5m)

[Foxwander]

Ok, so I've taken in all the advice, gave in and added some cyber, and I think I've got a much better character. Please let me know what you think...

Covert-Ops Adept, version 3.0

[ Spoiler ]

Metatype: Ork [20]

Attributes: [170]
B: 4 (0)
A: 5 (40)
R: 4 (30)
S: 5 (20)
C: 2 (10)
I: 4 (30)
L: 3 (20)
W: 3 (20)

Ess: 5
Mag: 5 [40]
Edge: 2 [10]

Positive Qualities: [24]
Adept (5)
Martial Arts (Krav Maga- Take Aim) (5)
--- Manuever, Off-hand Weapon training (blades) (2)
--- Manuever, Two Weapon Style (2)
Erased (5)
Analytical Mind (5)

Negative Qualities: [-35]
Day Job (Street Messenger, 2500/20hrs) (-10)
Nano-intolerance (-5)
Scorched (-5)
SINner (-5)
Poor Self Control (Thrill-seeker) (-5)
Mild Compulsive Behavior, Security (-5)

Adept Powers: (w/ Geas for 25% cost reduction)
Improved Reflexes 1
Missile Mastery
Power Throw 3
Eidetic Sense Memory
Combat Sense 2
Quick Draw

Active Skills: [134]
Electronics Group: 2 (20)
Stealth Group: 3 (30)
Climbing: 1 (4)
Etiquette: 1 (4)
Gymnastics: 4 (16)
Locksmith: 1 (4)
Perception: 4 (16)
Pilot Ground Craft: 1 (4)
Running: 1 (4)
Throwing Weapons: 6 (24)
Blades: 2 (8 )

Knowledge Skills/Languages: (21 free)
Security Procedures: 4
Security Design: 3
Chemistry: 1
Architecture: 1
Street Gangs: 1
Criminal Organizations: 2
LoneStar Procedures: 2
Navigation (smuggling): 1
Zen Meditation: 2

Japanese: N
English: 3
Or'zet: 1

Contacts: (2x CHA free house rule) [12]
Pawnbroker (Loyalty 3, Connection 3) (6)
Spider (Loyalty 6, Connection 4) (10)

Resources: (125,000) [25]
Obvious Lower Arm (alpha)
--- Grappling Gun w/ gecko-tipped myomeric rope, Orientation System, Commlink
Attention Coprocessor 3 (alpha)
Muscle Toner 2
Synthcardium 3

So check my math on this, but this gives me...
- Once I specialize in throwing knives- 15 to hit, doing 8P, with ranges slightly better than pistols (w/ twice the short range).
- The ability to attack AND go full defense with two blades (which should be 15 for full melee parry)
- 13 to try and dodge bullets
- 14 for most perception checks (sight and sound) thanks to gear and cyber. Does a UWB radar sensor add into this?
And I'm pretty decent at the core thieving stuff (electronic and stealth groups), with gear I should be rolling 9-10 dice for most of them.

So how does it look now?

[Nifft]

Generally IMHO it's never worth buying something that only gives you +1 initiative pass (IP). You can get that for -5 build points with a mild addiction to Cram, and that's a cheap, easily available drug.

Magic and 'Ware become superior when they can give you +2 IPs, so that's where I usually start. Either take Improved Reflexes II (for 2.5 pp) or get Synaptic Booster rating 2 (for 1.0 essence and 160 k¥). The nice thing about Improved Reflexes II is that you can improve it to III for a mere 1.5 pp, which you'll probably get long before the 'Ware character can afford a rating 3 implant.

My usual strategy with Adepts is:
- Figure out how I'm getting my extra IPs (Synaptic Booster 2 or Improved Reflexes 2 or mild Cram addiction)
- Figure out how I'm going to spend 1.0 essence (if I didn't take SynBoost2 above)
- Figure out how I'm going to spend my remaining power points


In specific, though, Throwing Adept is a really niche build. It's balanced around the idea that you get to use it in places where you could not smuggle a pistol. If you're always fighting in places where you could have smuggled a pistol, you have nerfed yourself.

For this throwing adept, how it plays would depend on the campaign's power level. If you're in a group with an assault-rifle specialist and an Angel Summoner, you may feel inadequate. If you're in a group with a pistol-toting face and a BMX Bandit, you will feel right at home.

It sounds like your group has some of the former, so you might want to drop the throwing angle and just pick up a gun. Guns are cool, and a gun adept can compete very well with even the most cybered up sammy.

[Foxwander]

Well I don't like the idea taking drugs to be effective in combat- but I could drop combat sense to take improved reflexes 2. Between those two, the reflexes are a pretty easy choice- not sure how I missed that when I was genning this up.

As for power throw- with it I'm as effective as most common guns and it means I pretty much always have a weapon. Since I'm the one most likely to be scouting somewhere that guns aren't an option, that makes me a little more comfortable. Plus its just more interesting than being yet another gun-toting runner. So hopefully I won't feel like the BMX Bandit of the group. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

This post has been edited by Foxwander: Dec 31 2010, 09:49 PM

[klinktastic]

I think Nifft hit it on the head. You need to provide some deal about the power level of your teammates. If they're really highly effective combat characters, its ok to not be combat effective. But you need to choose, spend a lot of BPs to make yourself feel adequate in combat or maybe do something else...buck the norm. Someone needs to play the other 80% of the game known as legwork.

[Foxwander]

Well, of other characters the oni street samurai is the only one actually effective in combat. Of course he's built for it- literally. The player is completely new to SR so he basically just took the sample street sam from the book. Then my wife and I worked with him to make the character personalized. But he's still all about combat. Between beefed up cyberarms, muscle toner, smart gun and specialization he has freaking 20 dice with assault rifles! Beyond that, he has a lot of armor, bone lacing and a high Body so he's pretty tough. And that's about it for him.

My wife is playing a face/utility mage. She went the mystic adept route and took lots of things that beef up her social abilities- like the glamour quality, first impression, adept commanding voice. She's also an elf with a 7 Charisma so she's rolling 13 - 18 dice with any social skill. Her spells are mostly utility stuff and illusions. Her only "attack" spells are stunball and hot potato. She also took the mild pacifist quality, so she carries a taser and a dartgun for weapons. Without her armor spells she's fairly vulnerable in combat.

Our rigger was apparently designed to live in his van (and it'd be 'down by the river' if he could get away with it (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) ). He took the uncouth quality to pay for increased aptitude with technical skills, then I think he poured most of his BPs into resources to pay for his van- which I doubt we could take anywhere cause it's practically a tank and looks about as subtle as one! Oh, and he took a lot of skills with computers and hacking and then he DIDN'T BUY A COMMLINK! Or any kind of weapon apparently- for himself OR the van. But it's got sensors out the wazoo, comm gear and 16 or 20 armor points!! I honestly don't know what his plan is for his character. I just met him when we started the game so we didn't have a chance to coordinate character/party ideas beforehand.

So that's our group. I'd say the power level is somewhere between Angel Summoner and BMX bandit. While the other characters (at least the first two) have the potential to leave us in the dust, they just don't play their characters like that. But while I'm not trying to make my character all kill, kill, kill- I figure we need at least someone else for combat besides the one guy. And it definitely pays to be at least effective in combat. It's mostly like I said in the first post- after our first game I saw that my character just wasn't very effective at ANYTHING while the others had at least one area they really shined at. I thought I had a really interesting concept, I just hadn't executed it very well on paper. I still don't know how well it'll play out, but at least I feel a lot better about it.

[Udoshi]

It sounds like your group has some of the former, so you might want to drop the throwing angle and just pick up a gun. Guns are cool, and a gun adept can compete very well with even the most cybered up sammy.

I've been looking at adepts lately, and considering ways to make melee adepts more viable. They're plenty good, and can be great, but they suffer in comparison to other archetypes: when a fight breaks out, gunslingers just bring out their gun and start dropping people, while a melee character has to worry about getting in range. A neat solution I've come up with is to use a spirit pact to get yourself Movement. Geas it to self-only. Even at a low, fairly inexpensive Force(3-4) you can become fairly fast. The key isn't speed, however. Its actions - Walking is a non-action, while Running is a Free action.

Granted, you should buy the spirit you're pacted to as a contact @ loyalty 6, just so you can refresh the pact as much as you like(in case of a dick, rules-lawyering gm).

If you change your throwing powers over to the unarmed powers - killing hands, critical strike, penetrating strike, counterstrike - you should have enough points to just grab them all.


I also have some negative quality suggestions. As a covert ops dude, you may be interested in the Mysterious Implant variant, Traceless on RunnersCompanion 106. You get fingerprint removal for free, but if you ever get caught, you're really screwed.

The Genewipe genetic treatment in Augmentation 89 is also worth considering. Its expensive(45k), and you'll need to use a Restricted Gear quality to start with it(16F), but its a -really- nice safety net against getting caught by leaving evidence behind.

[Foxwander]

Yes, but if I stick with throwing I don't have to worry about getting into range. I have better range, and more damage, then most guns- at least any kind of pistol that is. Of course, I can't do burst fire or full auto, but still- once I pick up knives specialization (and I have the karma to do that right now) I'll have enough dice to get at least some extra damage from net hits. And if I do close to melee range, I've got blades that do as much damage as I could have done with killing hands and critical strike. I'm sure the street sam will still outshine me in combat- but at least I can do more than just kill things.

Also I can't afford anymore essence lost for mysterious implants (and I did look at that- I just like the feel of it). I'm at exactly 1 point down at the moment- also I have less than 100 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) left from my resources- so I couldn't get anything else anyway. Besides, with the Erased quality any crimes I commit disappear from the system in 7 days anyway, so I'm sort of "traceless". (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

This post has been edited by Foxwander: Jan 1 2011, 05:56 AM

[Shaidar]

Don't forget, with Stealth & Blades you can pull off a silent kill. Let's see a gun toting Sammy pull that trick out of his hat.

[Glyph]

They do have these things for guns called silencers. Just saying. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

I think he should stick with the throwing, though - it's what he wants as part of the theme of this character, and it can be versatile (you can toss normal bladed weapons, or use toxins, or throw a variety of grenades).