Ritual Spellcasting, A Theoretical Optimization Thread Options

[Ramaloke]

So I've read a few threads that basically have this to say about Ritual Spellcasting: "It's a trap! Avoid it," and I agree. It seems to be largely useless for a runner unless the entire group is comprised of magicians. So I worked out a little math to see if I (and others) were right. I basically set out to see what could be done with it if taken to the extreme.

So, supposing the following (highly unlikely) ingredients:

1. A group of 7 powerful initiated magicians (Magic 7, Ritual Spellcasting 7, Great Ritual Metamagic).
2. A R6 Aspected Domain, raising their magic to 13.
3. Due to the increased magic from the domain, the 6 magicians using ritual spellcasting allow for a total of 78 other magicians (Magic 6, Ritual Spellcasting 7) to be added to the ritual.
4. This group (of elves) all have 8 charisma, and have 8 bound F7 or F6 spirits (depending on their Magic rating).

So the setup looks like this:

1. The lead magician is the only one contributing dice, the six others are using their Ritual Spellcasting Metamagic to add their Magic Rating to the spell being Cast. The Spell is being cast at F91.
2. There are 56 F7 Spirits that are effectively F13 in the Domain, they all Aid Sorcery on the Ritual Leader adding 728 Dice to the Ritual Leader's dice pool.
3. The 78 Magicians with Magic 6 all spend edge on their ritual spellcasting test, rolling 20 Exploding Dice, adding 546 Dice to the Ritual Leaders dice pool.
4. There are 642 F6 Spirits that are effectively F12 in the Domain, they all Aid Sorcery on the Ritual Leader, adding 7,704 Dice to the Ritual Leader's dice pool.
5. The Ritual Leader spends a point of edge, allowing him to go over the hit cap on a F91 Spell, his dice pool 8,999, and they are all exploding.

Obviously the system breaks down pretty quickly when this type of thing is done. He gets an average of 3599 Hits.

Of course I realize how rare such a group would be, this kind of thing would be a plot device.

[Adarael]

Sounds like a great way to have a super-secret, super-powerful cabal of magicians intimidate world leaders or other powerful people into doing their bidding, lest they be struck down with ritual magic. Or, "Why Tir Na Nog can still be relevant."

[Ramaloke]

It actually can be optimized further, technically you can add a whole bunch of other spellcasters to the group and because each of the 6 with ritual spellcasting increases the number of participants allowed within a ritual, though its largely useless with the spirits, I mean, more dice isn't going to do anything extra. You are already capped on net hits... unless you spend edge. Spending Edge would result in 749 Exploding dice without the 78 extra participants. With the extra participants you could get up to 8607 Exploding dice, or 3536 Hits.

Problem is, what do you really need 3536 hits on?

-EDIT-

Added the above and tweaked a bit more to the original post.

[Teryon]

Well, casting against a Dragon comes to mind purpose-wise...

[Emy]

Ritual Spellcasting uses a teamwork test to add to the main character's dice pool. Teamwork has this to say: (p65 in SR4A)

The maximum dice bonus the primary character can receive from teamwork is equal to that character's skill.

Additionally, your understanding of aspected domains is incorrect. My current character has one, and while they are quite nice, they do not do this:

[*]A R6 Aspected Domain, raising their magic to 13.
[*]Due to the increased magic from the domain, [...]

They don't raise magic if they're aligned towards you. Instead, they give you a (p119 or so in SM)

[...] dice pool bonus to any Magical skill tests and Drain Resistance Tests performed in the domain [...]

[Ramaloke]

Ritual Spellcasting uses a teamwork test to add to the main character's dice pool. Teamwork has this to say:

edit: Additionally, your understanding of aspected domains is incorrect. My current character has one, and while they are quite nice, they do not do this:

They don't raise magic if they're aligned towards you. Instead, they give you a

Thanks, I'll fix this is a bit.

[Summerstorm]

WAITWAITWAITWAIT... WAIT.

Ok, i am going on memory here. (But i myself analyzed ritual spellcasting a while ago)

Isn't it like:
1. The caster can't get more bonus dice from participants than he has himself, like in all assisted tests / teamwork rules.
2. The spirits have no tradition themselves and as such do not benefit from aspected domains (If they were FREE or REALLY belong to that domain a GM will of course let them benefit... but standart conjured ones? NAH)
3. Would a GM REALLY let you explode teamwork dice with your own edge?
4. The drain will still obliterate the whole cabal (since EVERY participant has to resist it without any help). Which means that there still is a maximum limit of a spell to Force about 30 or so... OR your sweet magical circle of handpicked, expensive, initiated magicians will do it only once. (Or you will have to equip them with force 75 centering foci for a few million)


The real breaker in magic (as if it wasn't insane enough) i think, is the theoretical unlimited karma+bonded foki possibility. I have posted about that a while ago.

Basically: Nosferatu blood-mage drains 2 dudes and boosts his magic +12, has a bound force 50 centering focus. and uses the "Sacrifice"-metatechnique on an immobilized hitbox-wonder character to lower his drain by about 15 points.

Sure the character needs to be a ~400BP + 500 Karma character. But yeah, he can pump out insane shit too..

Which brings me to the next point: Now your whole cabal of evil mages ARE Nosferatu blood mages with 500 Karma each, boosted mental stats with sustained spells to maximum and all using "Sacrifice". You know what we could do with that? Mwahaahaha..... ah sorry.

[Seth]

I am not a huge fan of such plot devices: I think the magic space / time quantum continuum would implode with such a magic density (this is GM bullshit saying "forget it"). Plus the horrors would turn up and eat all the casters.

I was interested in the previous answer as it addressed some corner issues, and I wonder about other peoples opinions on it.

2.The spirits have no tradition themselves and as such do not benefit from aspected domains (If they were FREE or REALLY belong to that domain a GM will of course let them benefit... but standart conjured ones? NAH)

I think standard summoned spirits have a tradition and as such would benefit from aspected domain. I certainly have always played them as that (a water elemental from a mage I play as different to a water spirit from a shaman).

3. Would a GM REALLY let you explode teamwork dice with your own edge?

I think this is how edge works. I certainly have never split the die into "these are mine" and "these are teamwork".

4. The drain will still obliterate the whole cabal (since EVERY participant has to resist it without any help). Which means that there still is a maximum limit of a spell to Force about 30 or so...

I agree. I think it used to be the case that if you died or went unconscious from drain, the spell failed. I couldn't find any reference to this in the SR4 books: has this changed or is my memory faulty?

[Modular Man]

I think standard summoned spirits have a tradition and as such would benefit from aspected domain. I certainly have always played them as that (a water elemental from a mage I play as different to a water spirit from a shaman).

Oh, yes, in my opinion they are subject to a tradition and thus would gain bonus dice. Still, aspected domains don't boost a spirit's force:

[...] a dice pool bonus for any Magical skill tests and Drain Resistance Tests [...] (up to a limit equal to his Magic attribute).

So, if a spirit uses spellcasting, it will gain bonus dice, else it won't.

[Garou]

They should rename this thread to "Why Aztechnology should scare you shitless". Because they have blood mages with sacrifice to take the blunt of the drain AND acess to highly aspected areas. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Fringe]

I agree. I think it used to be the case that if you died or went unconscious from drain, the spell failed. I couldn't find any reference to this in the SR4 books: has this changed or is my memory faulty?

Well, you certainly can't sustain a spell if you're unconscious or dead. So unless it's a combat spell, you're probably going to need a monster-force sustaining focus.

Also, that's a lot of mages with the Aptitude (Ritual Spellcasting) quality (That's the only way you're getting that skill at rating 7.) ... a lot more than I'd imagine likely for you to find without recruiting an entire magic group yourself and training them (probably for years or decades) to develop that quality and actually max out that skill.