FAQ for possession rules is broken, http://www.shadowrun4.com/resources/faq.shtml#spirits Options

[V-Origin]

What makes you think that it would increase the natural value of the human being possessed? Obviously only the augmented value is effected. I don't know where you're getting this idea that natural scores would change on the vessel.

I am getting this idea from watching spirits possess living men in real life and the same living men achieving some crazy feats.

Nope, not magic casting, by which I think you mean spell casting. Just magic. And magic applies to augmented maximums on attribute limits.

SR4A p 68, Attribute Ratings. Notice that it says MAGIC and not SPELLS, not POWERS, not just a subset but a label that encompasses ALL magical enhancement, regardless of source. Thus, all magic sources of augmentation are subject to this limit, as are cyberware, bioware, etc.

Possession is more of a spiritual act rather than a magical augmentation.

It is clearly implied that augmentation limits only cover cyber, bio, gene, powers and spells which directly increase stats. The adept power of increase attribute comes to mind.

Possession/Inhabitation is a power of letting a spirit take over a vessel with the stats increase being a secondary side-effect. Thus augmentative limits must increase.

So say a human with natural limit of 6 and augmented limits of 9. The difference of 3 is suppose to cover cyber, bio, gene, powers and spells augmentation. Possession/Inhabitation is not a attribute increasing power and thus should not be limited by augmented limits.

No offense, but does this even matter to your group? From what I recall your GM was entertaining the idea of letting you make great dragons into slaves to use as cannon fodder in your personal army. THAT doesn't break your concept of the game world, but that a living thing can only take so much bodily stress above it's natural limits before it no longer functions is ridiculous to you? Maybe that's fine for your table, just don't expect us all to see it that way.

Spirits possessing men are suppose to remove the natural limits of men. That is like the natural side-effect of possession and mediumship all over the world.

I think everyone should research more into the topic of mediumship before coming to the wrong conclusions.

Our group will be encountering spirit-possessed dragons. Heh.

[Draco18s]

I have seen spirits possess living men in real life

Wait, wait, what?

First off, that would require positive scientific proof that spirits exist, in the first place.

And in the second (part of your argument which I snipped) you'd have to prove that these "possessed men" couldn't do the feats without the possession. A whole slew of people running over hot coals: not really an argument for spirit possession. Also note the verb. "Run" as in "touch the coals as little as possible and do it quickly." Hell, I can stick my arm into fires and not get burned. So can anyone. It's called heat transfer rate.

[Yerameyahu]

I don't think I'm being mean when I remind you that pattyhulez is known to say provocative things. Presumably, for the purpose of being provocative. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Let's acknowledge that there's no such thing as magic, further acknowledge that reality has nothing to do with Shadowrun anyway, and continue.

pattyhulez, I think it was made very clear earlier in the thread that the RAW says one thing, but (in the exact same breath) that the intent wasn't that. And further, that no one has to follow the RAW anyway. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) So, you're free to house rule those rules for spirit possession in your game, and you'd probably be in good company. The FAQ is not necessarily 'broken', but it may well disagree with you (and others).

[V-Origin]

I don't think I'm being mean when I remind you that pattyhulez is known to say provocative things. Presumably, for the purpose of being provocative. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Let's acknowledge that there's no such thing as magic, further acknowledge that reality has nothing to do with Shadowrun anyway, and continue.

pattyhulez, I think it was made very clear earlier in the thread that the RAW says one thing, but (in the exact same breath) that the intent wasn't that. And further, that no one has to follow the RAW anyway. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) So, you're free to house rule those rules for spirit possession in your game, and you'd probably be in good company. The FAQ is not necessarily 'broken', but it may well disagree with you (and others).

Yeah I suppose this next video is showing mad men jumping around like monkeys for no good reason. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KJr2BdUTYkU...feature=related

[Yerameyahu]

I can't tell if that's sarcasm, or some kind of meta-ironic-sarcasm… or just silliness. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Regardless, even *real* science has almost nothing to do with Shadowrun *physics*, and nothing in reality has anything to do with Shadowrun *magic*.

[V-Origin]

I can't tell if that's sarcasm, or some kind of meta-ironic-sarcasm… or just silliness. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Regardless, even *real* science has almost nothing to do with Shadowrun *physics*, and nothing in reality has anything to do with Shadowrun *magic*.

But Shadowrun *magic* has to have at least a semblance of commonsense, doesn't it?

[Muspellsheimr]

Let's acknowledge that there's no such thing as magic,

Let's acknowledge that magic has not been scientifically verified to date.

I am not saying magic does exist within reality, I am saying it doesn't necessarily not exist within reality.

[Yerameyahu]

No. All magic is always 100% arbitrary. At best, the system *might* be internally consistent, but probably not. There are certain hard-and-fast rules, which helps a little.

Same thing, Muspellheimr. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) Guilty until proven innocent.

[KarmaInferno]

But Shadowrun *magic* has to have at least a semblance of commonsense, doesn't it?

No.

It just has to be internally consistent.





-k

[Eratosthenes]

And you are now an expert on magic? Who are you to say that a spirit cannot completely invest a living creature with its full power and yet is able to invest the same corpse of the said living creature with its full power once the living creature is dead?

Excuse me? It's a rationalization to fit the rules. I was in no way claiming to be an expert on magic. None of us are; magic does not exist outside of the game.

I can easily counter your theory and say that creatures which has a well of mana or essence is more compatible to integration with a living spirit just because of its mana or essence and is thus more powerful than an inanimate possessed corpse.

Except my rationalization fits the rules, and yours does not. I could say the sky is green, but just by going outside, I can clearly see that it is not.

And besides, the why does not matter. As others have said, it could be that the spirit does not want to/cannot hurt the living creature by 'redlining', or perhaps its the living creature actively resisting the possession...in the end, the fluff doesn't matter, it's the rules that matter.

it would have the bod/agi/str of previous incarnation.. it is simple logic

No, a dead body has no agility score, no strength score, and potentially no body score (though that might be debatable). It's just a lump of meat. Your logic is neither simple nor logical. But then, you're really just trolling, and not looking for a conversation.

[Mäx]

No, a dead body has no agility score, no strength score, and potentially no body score (though that might be debatable). It's just a lump of meat. Your logic is neither simple nor logical. But then, you're really just trolling, and not looking for a conversation.

Yes patty is nothing but a semi good troll, but that doesn't stop him from being right(whether by coincidence or from actually knowing the rules is not really relevant).

Dead Vessels, sometimes known as zombies, are crafted
from the corpses of dead critters and metahumans and are
outlawed by most governments in the Sixth World. These vessels
possess the same Physical attributes they did in life, minus
1 point from each attribute per week they have been dead, to
a minimum of 1. The reagents used to enchant the vessel limit
further decomposition, so prepared dead vessels lose 1 attribute
point every month rather than every week. Cyberware and nanotech
are mostly useless when not powered by a living body, but a
dead vessel may retain armor and attribute bonuses from certain
bioware implants and genetech (gamemaster’s discretion).

The important line bolded by me.

[Yerameyahu]

Even a stopped clock… (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[sabs]

And like a stopped clock, unless you have a secondary source, you have no way of knowing WHEN it's right. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Eratosthenes]

Yes patty is nothing but a semi good troll, but that doesn't stop him from being right(whether by coincidence or from actually knowing the rules is not really relevant).

The important line bolded by me.

I stand (ok, sit) corrected. Still, that example sites prepared vessels. Would it apply to off-the-cuff item possession? (I don't have Street Magic handy to peruse atm). Can a spirit possess items off the cuff?

[Draco18s]

Can a spirit possess items off the cuff?

Yes. The threshold is just higher (by either 2 or 4, which makes it pretty significant for low-force* spirits)

*6 and below.

[Machiavelli]

Aaaah...great. Never saw this thread before. Great to have semi-official statements from the devs itself. They really discussed the topic with the attribute maximums to the end and at force 6+ materialization is superior to possession....but it doesn´t solve the problem of the extra-powers (e.g. skill) the new spirits have. ^^

[Mäx]

a human got into fight with a troll.. human summon up a possessing force 20 spirit and get possessed.. human crossed swords with troll's sword.. but troll's str 15 overwhelm human's str 9 and troll's sword killed human..

It's pretty much impossible for that troll to kill the human possessed by a force 20 spirit, the human has after all ItNW 40, meaning the troll has to use edge and keep on rolling sixes until his damage is 41P at the minimum. Really at that point the only thinks able to harm that guy are vehicle mounted gauss weapons and orbital weapons.

[KarmaInferno]

Eh, at that point it's easier to incapacitate than kill.

Dropping the uber-possessed guy into a shipping container, which immediately gets flash flooded with super-quick hardening concrete is a good start. Then all the containment spells start while the concrete block gets transported somewhere.

By the time he breaks free gets a nice view of the sun from the rocket he's riding in.



-k

[Sephiroth]

Yeah I suppose this next video is showing mad men jumping around like monkeys for no good reason. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KJr2BdUTYkU...feature=related

Did you even read the description for the video you yourself posted? That video claims to deal with manipulation of chi, not spirit possession in the slightest.

Furthermore, if the first book of the infamous Dragonheart trilogy is anything to go by, it makes complete sense that high-force spirits can't push vessels past their augmented maximum values. At least one person died in that book because his body couldn't handle being possessed by the incredibly powerful free spirit Lethe.

[tagz]

I am getting this idea from watching spirits possess living men in real life and the same living men achieving some crazy feats.

I'm not going to argue what you may or may not have seen. I will point out however that I could see the same thing and come to very different conclusions.

That said, we are not talking about the real world. Shadowrun source books are not intended to be real world spiritual/technology/internet/biology/physics manuals. You could BE A DRAGON in real life, it does not change the rules. It only changes your interpretation of how closely they resemble life.

Possession is more of a spiritual act rather than a magical augmentation.

Can't argue this from a real life standpoint as I'm not overly familiar with belief systems that believe in spiritual possession.

From a game standpoint you are incorrect. If spiritual possession was not an act intrinsically linked with magic then it would have been separated from magic in the rules. All forms of magical augmentation is limited by Augmented Attribute limits, in fact there are NO exceptions whatsoever without a clearly stated exemption in he rule, such as red lining. Possession (even if it were not considered magic) does not have such an exemption.

It is clearly implied that augmentation limits only cover cyber, bio, gene, powers and spells which directly increase stats. The adept power of increase attribute comes to mind.

Post the line that implies this, please. I suspect that it only implies this to you based on your personal belief that spirit possession is not magical. Again, the rules do not account for your personal beliefs, spirit possession is considered magic in Shadowrun.

Possession/Inhabitation is a power of letting a spirit take over a vessel with the stats increase being a secondary side-effect. Thus augmentative limits must increase.

This makes no sense at all. The conclusion is not supported by the argument. In fact, the argument is a quick summary of possession without any rules, and noting that the change to attributes isn't the primary point, which common sense says would lead to the opposite conclusion you had.

I'm willing to debate the subject but not when the statements follow these lines:
Shoes are an article of clothing worn on the feet. Thus, all shoes in existence must be priced under $20.

So say a human with natural limit of 6 and augmented limits of 9. The difference of 3 is suppose to cover cyber, bio, gene, powers and spells augmentation. Possession/Inhabitation is not a attribute increasing power and thus should not be limited by augmented limits.

No, it is supposed to cover all augmentations in all cases unless otherwise noted. Possession lacks this. Again, this is an argument that is only held up by your personal opinion that possession should not be considered magical. The book and rules do define it as magical, and magic is no exception to the ruling on attribute limits. This is in part setting, in part game balance.

Spirits possessing men are suppose to remove the natural limits of men. That is like the natural side-effect of possession and mediumship all over the world.

They do. Anything past the natural limit IS removing the natural limits of men. That means that any score above a human's 6 is indeed beyond his/her natural limitations. The fact that I can get there first with other means makes no difference, it's beyond what a person is capable of naturally.

I think everyone should research more into the topic of mediumship before coming to the wrong conclusions.

Again, your world perception is not what the rule book is trying to mirror. It has it's own defined rules based on a fictitious setting. Even the tech and science portions of the book often times don't accurately reflect reality and there is far more argument for those sections to.

And as such, I believe you are coming to the wrong conclusions from your belief that the book is intending to something it isn't, as supported by the developer thread.

Our group will be encountering spirit-possessed dragons. Heh.

And those by RAW should have Augmented Attribute Limits equal to 1.5 X Natural Maximum Attribute Limits.

All that said, so what? Don't play by RAW if it bothers you so. Hardly anyone plays a purely RAW game with no house-rules. And this is one of these rules that many people don't like so they house rule it.

[Muspellsheimr]

While the argument is essentially correct, there are a few nitpicks.

No, it is supposed to cover all augmentations in all cases unless otherwise noted.

Rules as Written, attribute increases from cyberware, bioware, adept power, & magic are limited by augmented maximums.
The intent appears to be to limit all forms of artificial augmentation, but does not actually include drugs etc. Also, including adept powers was redundant.

And those by RAW should have Augmented Attribute Limits equal to 1.5 X Natural Maximum Attribute Limits.

I am not overtly familiar with Running Wild yet, but unless included somewhere in there, augmented maximums are only applied to metahumans. Again, Rules as Written.

[tagz]

Yeah, good catches. Makes me wonder, do most people play with drugs pushing beyond augmented limits? I suppose that would make them much more useful.

And I thought I remembered a rule somewhere about augmented maxes and non-metahumans but I can't seem to find it in RW. Guess I might be wrong about that point.

[Critias]

But Shadowrun *magic* has to have at least a semblance of commonsense, doesn't it?

Avoiding any comments about "common sense" from the guy claiming to have personally witnessed totally awesome spirit inhabitations that led to amazing kung-fu fighting (or whatever it is you're claiming to have seen) -- no. No, Shadowrun magic doesn't have to have some semblance of common sense.

It should have playability, and internal consistency, because it's a game.

[V-Origin]

I'm not going to argue what you may or may not have seen. I will point out however that I could see the same thing and come to very different conclusions.

That said, we are not talking about the real world. Shadowrun source books are not intended to be real world spiritual/technology/internet/biology/physics manuals. You could BE A DRAGON in real life, it does not change the rules. It only changes your interpretation of how closely they resemble life.


Can't argue this from a real life standpoint as I'm not overly familiar with belief systems that believe in spiritual possession.

From a game standpoint you are incorrect. If spiritual possession was not an act intrinsically linked with magic then it would have been separated from magic in the rules. All forms of magical augmentation is limited by Augmented Attribute limits, in fact there are NO exceptions whatsoever without a clearly stated exemption in he rule, such as red lining. Possession (even if it were not considered magic) does not have such an exemption.


Post the line that implies this, please. I suspect that it only implies this to you based on your personal belief that spirit possession is not magical. Again, the rules do not account for your personal beliefs, spirit possession is considered magic in Shadowrun.


This makes no sense at all. The conclusion is not supported by the argument. In fact, the argument is a quick summary of possession without any rules, and noting that the change to attributes isn't the primary point, which common sense says would lead to the opposite conclusion you had.

I'm willing to debate the subject but not when the statements follow these lines:
Shoes are an article of clothing worn on the feet. Thus, all shoes in existence must be priced under $20.


No, it is supposed to cover all augmentations in all cases unless otherwise noted. Possession lacks this. Again, this is an argument that is only held up by your personal opinion that possession should not be considered magical. The book and rules do define it as magical, and magic is no exception to the ruling on attribute limits. This is in part setting, in part game balance.


They do. Anything past the natural limit IS removing the natural limits of men. That means that any score above a human's 6 is indeed beyond his/her natural limitations. The fact that I can get there first with other means makes no difference, it's beyond what a person is capable of naturally.


Again, your world perception is not what the rule book is trying to mirror. It has it's own defined rules based on a fictitious setting. Even the tech and science portions of the book often times don't accurately reflect reality and there is far more argument for those sections to.

And as such, I believe you are coming to the wrong conclusions from your belief that the book is intending to something it isn't, as supported by the developer thread.


And those by RAW should have Augmented Attribute Limits equal to 1.5 X Natural Maximum Attribute Limits.

All that said, so what? Don't play by RAW if it bothers you so. Hardly anyone plays a purely RAW game with no house-rules. And this is one of these rules that many people don't like so they house rule it.

Let me repeat the following just in case you do not realize how clearly logical my arguments are.

Inhabitation/Possession is a power where the spirit takes over the body. Augmentation is not the primary objective of this power. It is a side effect.

Therefore the rules regarding augmented limits do not cover inhabitation/possession.

Augmented limits only cover powers or any other rules with the primary objective of increasing attribute limits eg cyber, bio, magic, spells..

Otherwise how is the game gonna reflect that a force 20 spirit possessed human is stronger than a force 10 spirit possessed human?

[Yerameyahu]

It's eminently arguable that 'augmentation' is the primary (for some players, only) effect; more importantly, there's no rules distinction for 'primary objectives' whatsoever. Why are you bothering? Just house rule. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)