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> Robin Hood / V for Vengeance are toxic mages, Not all toxics are evil and not all bloods are evil too - just ask aze
V-Origin
post Jan 4 2011, 05:40 AM
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Havocs
Others are acolytes of entropic
forces, driven by a sociopathic compulsion to bring down
symbols of authority
and order and seed chaos and bedlam.

By eliminating the pernicious influence of social hierarchies,
mores, and rules
through campaigns of mass murder or
targeted assassination
, the havocs believe that modern civilization
will crack under its own weight and give humankind a
chance at a new start.


Havoc toxics favor insidious strategies
and carefully laid plans, working from within to bring chaos
and ruin to their targeted groups and individuals.


This sub-path of the toxics is not inherently evil. Why is that?

Cos in the cold dark world of Shadowrun, the symbols of authority are the Evil Megacorps. Megas have created a sick structure of social hierarchies where the megas are the kings, the govts are the puppets and the citizens are the slaves.

Robin Hood/ V for Vengance did not bring mass chaos to the citizens. Instead they targeted evil individuals and specific locations to cause the maximum amount of good.

Bringing down evil megacorps and preventing them from causing more damage to the environment and humanity is a just and noble act, isn't it? Giving humankind a chance to start all over again and not destroying humankind itself, how is that evil?

In fact, I can even see Havocs Toxics fighting against Reapers Toxics. Reapers wanna destroy everything and are just as bad as the megas themselves.

It would be an interesting fight .. Havocs versus Reapers.. A case of fighting Poison with Poison ..
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Yerameyahu
post Jan 4 2011, 05:48 AM
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One definition of 'evil' could certainly be "eliminating the pernicious influence of social hierarchies, mores, and rules through campaigns of mass murder or targeted assassination". This is a classic 'villain' modus operandi. It's the classic 'terrorists'/'freedom fighters'.

Toxics are certainly evil to some, and probably many.
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Brazilian_Shinob...
post Jan 4 2011, 05:49 AM
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I see what you did there.
See, I can make it too:

Havocs
Others are acolytes of entropic
forces, driven by a sociopathic compulsion to bring down
symbols of authority and order and seed chaos and bedlam.

By eliminating the pernicious influence of social hierarchies,
mores, and rules through campaigns of mass murder or
targeted assassination, the havocs believe that modern civilization
will crack under its own weight
and give humankind a
chance at a new start.

Havoc toxics favor insidious strategies
and carefully laid plans, working from within to bring chaos
and ruin to their targeted groups and individuals.


See? I just emphasized another aspect of the havocs and put Heath Ledger's Joker on the same group that Robin Hood and V are.
They are crazy, period. That's what is the most scary thing about toxic mages.
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V-Origin
post Jan 4 2011, 05:58 AM
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But what is evil to one person is not necessarily evil to another person.

Case in point.. the war brewing between Aze and Amazonia.

Aze soldiers probably think that Amazonia people are evil and Amazonia soldiers probably think that Aze people are evil.

Many poor citizens probably think that the megas are evil for taking advantage of their poverty while the megas think they are justified to trample on the poor for profit.

I bet that Havocs are heroes in the eyes of the poor for bringing down the almighty megas. Just check out the crowd reactions in Robin Hood and V.
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V-Origin
post Jan 4 2011, 06:01 AM
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QUOTE (Brazilian_Shinobi @ Jan 4 2011, 04:49 PM) *
I see what you did there.
See, I can make it too:

Havocs
Others are acolytes of entropic
forces, driven by a sociopathic compulsion to bring down
symbols of authority and order and seed chaos and bedlam.

By eliminating the pernicious influence of social hierarchies,
mores, and rules through campaigns of mass murder or
targeted assassination, the havocs believe that modern civilization
will crack under its own weight
and give humankind a
chance at a new start.

Havoc toxics favor insidious strategies
and carefully laid plans, working from within to bring chaos
and ruin to their targeted groups and individuals.


See? I just emphasized another aspect of the havocs and put Heath Ledger's Joker on the same group that Robin Hood and V are.
They are crazy, period. That's what is the most scary thing about toxic mages.


Only Joker the toxic mage is crazy.

V is maybe just a tad crazy.

Robin Hood the toxic is the sanest thinker out there who see the most clearly.

What about the megas? I can probably make the same claim for many CEOs working in the megas. That they are criminally insane.
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Yerameyahu
post Jan 4 2011, 06:03 AM
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That's what I just said. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) However, it's not a contest. Toxics of all kinds use methods and have behaviors that would commonly be considered evil of some kind. The point isn't that you could find someone who'd like them. Brazilian_Shinobi rightly pointed out that you highlighted 'targeted assassination' instead of 'mass murder'. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

And your characterization of Robin Hood is a pretty fringe one. Maybe the Michael Bay version. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)
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V-Origin
post Jan 4 2011, 06:07 AM
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QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jan 4 2011, 05:03 PM) *
That's what I just said. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) However, it's not a contest. Toxics of all kinds use methods and have behaviors that would commonly be considered evil of some kind. The point isn't that you could find someone who'd like them. Brazilian_Shinobi rightly pointed out that you highlighted 'targeted assassination' instead of 'mass murder'. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)


That is because it clearly states that some toxics use "targeted assassination" instead of "mass murder".

All the megas in SR4 have no compulsion about using mass murders if they can get away with it.

Yes there are some toxics who use all methods and have behaviours that would be considered evil.

There are also some toxics who use methods who only hurt those who deserve it. Kinda like "honor between thieves". Just like Robin Hood and V.

And the rest are in between.

Are you gonna claim that ALL toxics are mass-murderers then?
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Yerameyahu
post Jan 4 2011, 06:10 AM
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No one said megacorps can't be evil.

Actually, it doesn't say 'instead of'. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) It's true that some might not, but we're talking about categories here.
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KarmaInferno
post Jan 4 2011, 06:23 AM
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It really depends on if you believe in relative morality, or absolute morality.

Either belief will completely alter and color how you think about the subject.

So much so that it is probably a bad idea to try debating about it, because folks that believe the other way are generally not going to change their belief.




-k
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Yerameyahu
post Jan 4 2011, 06:39 AM
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In any case, I think we're ignoring the assumption here: who cares whether or not anything is 'evil'? They're simply too crazy to be playable characters under any normal circumstances. You can't be a mega-CEO either. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) In fact, a certain level of 'evil' is a near-requirement for Shadowrunners.
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Manunancy
post Jan 4 2011, 06:45 AM
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Yeah right he's a good guy of sorts.. just think about what the result of that 'benevolent' guy will be in a society as heavily urbanized and interlinked society as that of shadowrun...

It won't be an extinction-level event, but the body count would make the khmer rouge proud. Sure the methods are a bit cleaner, but the endstate he's aiming for is will give a population as reduced as his more extremist buddies, even if it isn't as bad as the reaper's ones.
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V-Origin
post Jan 4 2011, 07:45 AM
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QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jan 4 2011, 04:10 PM) *
No one said megacorps can't be evil.

Actually, it doesn't say 'instead of'. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) It's true that some might not, but we're talking about categories here.


"or" or "instead of" .. same meaning different words..

again, i am not saying all toxics are heroes..

i am merely saying not all toxics are the type of megalomaniac villains like the joker..

some toxics can be heroes too aka robin hood and V for Vengeance
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V-Origin
post Jan 4 2011, 07:47 AM
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QUOTE (KarmaInferno @ Jan 4 2011, 04:23 PM) *
It really depends on if you believe in relative morality, or absolute morality.

Either belief will completely alter and color how you think about the subject.

So much so that it is probably a bad idea to try debating about it, because folks that believe the other way are generally not going to change their belief.




-k


Again let me stress that I am not applying the same appeal for all toxics.. A lot of toxics are clearly deranged and evil but ALL of them?.. that is being racist..
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V-Origin
post Jan 4 2011, 07:50 AM
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QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jan 4 2011, 04:39 PM) *
In any case, I think we're ignoring the assumption here: who cares whether or not anything is 'evil'? They're simply too crazy to be playable characters under any normal circumstances. You can't be a mega-CEO either. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) In fact, a certain level of 'evil' is a near-requirement for Shadowrunners.


Define "crazy"?

I care about where something is "evil" ..

Cos I am starting a toxic group where the main objective is to raid/destroy the corps and give some of the loot to the poor aka Shadow Run Robin Hood..
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V-Origin
post Jan 4 2011, 07:52 AM
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QUOTE (Manunancy @ Jan 4 2011, 04:45 PM) *
Yeah right he's a good guy of sorts.. just think about what the result of that 'benevolent' guy will be in a society as heavily urbanized and interlinked society as that of shadowrun...

It won't be an extinction-level event, but the body count would make the khmer rouge proud. Sure the methods are a bit cleaner, but the endstate he's aiming for is will give a population as reduced as his more extremist buddies, even if it isn't as bad as the reaper's ones.


Can you quote any RAW from the books which state that the level of destruction committed by a Havoc toxic would be as bad as the khmer?

Are there any minimum numbers of assassinations which a toxic havoc has to achieve?

I think not..

It is a subjective interpretation not an objective one..
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Manunancy
post Jan 4 2011, 08:28 AM
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QUOTE (pattyhulez @ Jan 4 2011, 08:52 AM) *
Can you quote any RAW from the books which state that the level of destruction committed by a Havoc toxic would be as bad as the khmer?

Are there any minimum numbers of assassinations which a toxic havoc has to achieve?

I think not..

It is a subjective interpretation not an objective one..


I don't think it's a subjective one - those guy's goal is expressely stated as 'making civilization crumble under it's own weight'. I fail to see any way of doing that that wouldn't result in a massive (as in at least 50%) dieoff as said civilization has enabled population numbers that can't be supported without it's infrastructure. The transition period during which the crumbling happen and something new emerges will be especially bad in that regard. He won't cause those death directly, but neither did Pol Pot handle personnaly the casualties his regime has caused. The dieoff might not be the goal, but it's an inevitable and either accepted or blisfully ignored consequence of succes.

It's a rather constant pattern in history that when a minority tries to forces it's opinion on the majority, said majority tends to get hit hard as the extremist often try to'wipe the slate clean' to write their ideals on it. The more extreme the minority's ideology, the more thorough the wiping, and in the case of the havocs, you'll have to look hard to find equally extreme.
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PoliteMan
post Jan 4 2011, 08:38 AM
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Yeah, I can buy some of this. I can see shaman who turn down the toxic route while still having pure(ish) intentions and who still retain a lot of their humanity. Heck, it could be a really cool roleplaying opportunity. There's no reason being a toxic should be the defining character feature of a toxic shaman. If you want to run a group like that, more power to you, should be really cool.

Over time, however, these guys are gonna go nuts. As I understand it (I generally stay on the techy side of Shadowrun), their mentor spirits are the literal embodiments of chaotic evil and the use of their power literally corrupts their "soul". Doesn't mean they can't be good anymore than a runner who shoots up K-10 before making a run to donate to an orphanage is evil but that doesn't change the fact that both of them are slowly going to go mad and probably wind up killing everyone around them in a brutal manner. No one maintains their sanity in that kind of situation.

Being toxic doesn't mean you have to be evil but it's a pretty clear indication of which way the character is headed. V and Robin Hood and basically anyone else you want to mention didn't have these problems but they also didn't shoot heroin every morning. These are the kind of forces which alter your mentality in ways you can't really fight. Sure, a toxic could have good intentions and could use his powers righteously for awhile but it's a losing fight, he's trying to retain his humanity and while he's still using these powers they're going to change his mentality, drain his humanity, and there's no way for him to get that back unless he stops using them.

If you're planning on playing one, that's cool but this is pretty much you're pre-defined character arc: a descent into madness until you quit or die. If you want to play an anarchist shaman, play an anarchist shaman, there's no lack of "dark" anarchist groups fighting for their perception of good. Toxic is the deep, messed up part of that pool and there's not really any reason to try and move them into the "misunderstood" category. Besides the fact that if you're planning on playing one, by definition, there's a one million nuyen bounty on your head posted by the closest thing Shadowrun has to Jesus. Why would any group of runners pass up that bounty so they can run with a guy who will probably degenerate into a raving madman, sorry, a raving madman with serious magical firepower and a tiny Joker on his shoulders telling him to BURN EVERYTHING.

There's no such thing as a kindly old toxic shaman. You quit or you go mad.
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Fortinbras
post Jan 4 2011, 10:45 AM
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Toxic Shamans represent a Lovecraftian evil that sits within all men's souls. Their goals may have been pure to begin with, but the nature of destruction and power is an inherently corrupting influence.
That is the place they hold in the story. To play them as heroes is to play the game backwards, in an old RPG parlance.

To the point of moral relativism, it can be said that George Washington wanted to overthrow a corrupt system as well, but we aren't talking about polite freedom fighters here, we're talking about people who want to overthrow an entire system upon which people's lives depend to suite their own whim and fancy.
They have decided the system is evil and they have decided they have the right to destroy it. They didn't ask me if I want it destroyed. I might like my life in my MCT Archology and my kids might not want to get blown up because they eat at McDonalds.
If the shamans just wanted to get out of the thumbs of the megas, they have options. Move to Greenland or Amazonia. Tons of places in the 6th world civilization can't touch.
These shamans have proposed that a system of their own devising is greater than the will of the individual. And as that individual, you don't get to decide how I live my life. In that way they are exactly like the corps, only with less money. They are just as evil, but with an evil spirit guiding them, making them more evil.

And it is V for Vendetta not Vengeance. Alan Moore is going to come out of his creepy, British, una-bomber style shack and do unspeakable things to you with his hobo beard if you don't get that right!

EDIT:
That, and toxic/blood magic brings forth the Horrors to kill all mankind, hence Big D's bounty on them.
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Mäx
post Jan 4 2011, 12:05 PM
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QUOTE (Fortinbras @ Jan 4 2011, 12:45 PM) *
EDIT:
That, and toxic/blood magic brings forth the Horrors to kill all mankind, hence Big D's bounty on them.

Are you sure about that, draco foundation does after all want them alive and at least in the blood mages case only those who are on the "extraction list" provided by them (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool.gif)
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Sengir
post Jan 4 2011, 02:30 PM
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QUOTE (pattyhulez @ Jan 4 2011, 06:40 AM) *
Havocs
Others are acolytes of entropic
forces, driven by a sociopathic compulsion to bring down
symbols of authority
and order and seed chaos and bedlam.

By eliminating the pernicious influence of social hierarchies,
mores, and rules
through campaigns of mass murder or
targeted assassination
, the havocs believe that modern civilization
will crack under its own weight and give humankind a
chance at a new start.


Havoc toxics favor insidious strategies
and carefully laid plans, working from within to bring chaos
and ruin to their targeted groups and individuals.

Then mankind would have become as the Great Old Ones; free and wild and beyond good and evil, with laws and morals thrown aside and all men shouting and killing and revelling in joy. Then the liberated Old Ones would teach them new ways to shout and kill and revel and enjoy themselves, and all the earth would flame with a holocaust of ecstasy and freedom

Toxics are supposed to be evil incarnate. In a game mostly played from the perspective of outcasts with a heavy crypto-anarchist and anti-authoritarian angle. Go figure (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
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Yerameyahu
post Jan 4 2011, 02:45 PM
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Besides, you should admit that the only reason you want to rehabilitate toxic paths is so you can cherry-pick your spirits and powers. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
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Irion
post Jan 4 2011, 03:13 PM
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QUOTE
But what is evil to one person is not necessarily evil to another person.

This is a silly statement.
You can not ask "What is evil?" and then start throwing around different moral paradigmas. (Without judging or even analysing them.)

Of course you may find some aspects which do not disgust your group. Of course you may build a toxic shamen around them and still have some common ground with the rules.

I do have to admit, that this is (unfortunatly) very common in fantasy litrature. Building up sterotypes, somethimes contradicting the "game rules" or just common sense, and use those to break the "sterotype" known as game rules or common sense.

Some examples are the "evil" Praioten in DSA or "good" servants of Arch Daemons.
This is done by giving a fantasy believe system the appearance of what is believed of the catholic church during medival times. Ignoring completly that it is canon that 1. Gods exist and 2. their existance can be perceived and proven 3. everything said about the believe system in question.
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Brainpiercing7.6...
post Jan 4 2011, 03:24 PM
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QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jan 4 2011, 03:45 PM) *
Besides, you should admit that the only reason you want to rehabilitate toxic paths is so you can cherry-pick your spirits and powers. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)


But that alone shows that Shadowrun also succumbs to the crappy "evil does it better" mentality that is designed to make game mastering easier - because the evil guys just GET more and better toys, you don't have to really think about how to hand them out.

I've also always thought that all this toxic/horror whatever crap is just a lame tack-on to a game that is inherently too "evil" to be scary any more. You've already got a world devoid of inherent morals, but that's not enough, there has to be something left that's objectively evil and beyond the grasp of PCs. Which is really just lame in my opinion, but then I guess we have the original designers to thank for this.

At least insect spirits are just aliens who want to... do whatever, and obviously humans aren't going to like it. Toxics are dumb. They should have just said they are psychotic mages and left it at that.

Just my opinion, whatever...
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Fortinbras
post Jan 4 2011, 03:30 PM
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QUOTE (Mäx @ Jan 4 2011, 08:05 AM) *
Are you sure about that, draco foundation does after all want them alive and at least in the blood mages case only those who are on the "extraction list" provided by them (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool.gif)


I'm Sure About That
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IcyCool
post Jan 4 2011, 03:38 PM
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QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jan 4 2011, 03:45 PM) *
Besides, you should admit that the only reason you want to rehabilitate toxic paths is so you can cherry-pick your spirits and powers. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)


Don't forget his crazy master plan for what he'll do with them. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

pattyhuelz, your choice of Robin Hood is an odd one, and one that I don't think fits unless you generalize it out far enough to be pretty meaningless. Your characterization of V seems reasonable accurate. But then again, he's an insane vigilante, not a hero. Just because his motivations are sympathetic and understandable doesn't somehow make them "heroic".

Clearly, you should have chosen the Toxic Avenger as your champion example. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)
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