Robin Hood / V for Vengeance are toxic mages, Not all toxics are evil and not all bloods are evil too - just ask aze Options

[Doc Chase]

Robin Hood was very clear in that he didn't want to bring down the Crown, only the corrupt infuences that stood in its stead while Richard was on his Crusade. He upheld just laws, and ensured that the people could buy food and pay their taxes.

All this doesn't really matter in the end - you wish to justify being toxic, and you aren't going to find justification here. Just houserule your Force-20-Spirit-Inhabiting-Cybernetic-Great-Dragon-Corpses, and don't tell us what happens.

[Fortinbras]

Just house rule your Force-20-Spirit-Inhabiting-Cybernetic-Great-Dragon-Corpses, and don't tell us what happens.

My Force-20-Spirit-Inhabiting-Cybernetic-Great-Dragon-Corpse has the positive Quality "Everyone I Fight Dies" and "Wins the Game Three Times in a Game"

[Doc Chase]

My Force-20-Spirit-Inhabiting-Cybernetic-Great-Dragon-Corpse has the positive Quality "Everyone I Fight Dies" and "Wins the Game Three Times in a Game"

There's another little spark of hate now, just for that. Grr. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Sengir]

My Force-20-Spirit-Inhabiting-Cybernetic-Great-Dragon-Corpse

What, no Technomancy? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[otakusensei]

What, no Technomancy? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

Just take a 6/6 contact free sprite for that.

[Charon]

Megacorporation aren't evil. They don't want to enslave people. They don't commit mass murder. From a moral POV, They don't do nothing at all, they are just legal constructs!

People working in these corporation might be evil, or ruthless, or conflicted, or idealistic, or generous family men or whatever. Corporation will develop corporate culture thay may have leanings (I.E. Azthechnology during the blood magic craze) and the pressure to succeed and therefore compromise will increase at the upper echelons, but that's it.

Saying Corporation X is EEEEVIIILLL is awfully simplistic. Specific people working in these corporations might be 'evil', sure, and the most agressive corp culture probably result in a majority of a-holes in the upper echelons. Typical villains, where would cyberpunk be without them? But the most grotesque ones probably disgust many of their own colleagues. Which by the way, is useful thing to remember in game when going against a megalomaniac corporate boardroom maniac... You can probably find allies against him within his own corp. Cool stories right there.

Toxics... Those guys are twisted for real IMO, like the bugs. Not necessarily 'evil', but at least 'goals-are-irreconciliable-with-humanity-because-if-they-win-you're-dead-or-a-slave'. That's the whole point; a bit of black and white in a mostly grey game.

In fact, toxics-going-against-corp story lines are cool for the potential of forcing strange bedfellows together, such an eagle shaman PC allying with a corporate suit he hates to take on a common toxic enemy.

[X-Kalibur]

Robin Hood was very clear in that he didn't want to bring down the Crown, only the corrupt infuences that stood in its stead while Richard was on his Crusade. He upheld just laws, and ensured that the people could buy food and pay their taxes.

All this doesn't really matter in the end - you wish to justify being toxic, and you aren't going to find justification here. Just houserule your Force-20-Spirit-Inhabiting-Cybernetic-Great-Dragon-Corpses, and don't tell us what happens.

There's also the whole Robin Hood being ficticious part. At least the one being depicted.

[Doc Chase]

There's also the whole Robin Hood being ficticious part. At least the one being depicted.

Robin Hood exists as much as V does. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[X-Kalibur]

I saw that quip coming after I had posted. Heh. Fair enough. In both regards they are written as an ideal. Real people are rarely so... lacking in depth and complexity. We want to believe someone like Robin Hood could exist, someone who was entirely lacking in self desire the he robbed people and gave the money to those less fortunate.

[Doc Chase]

True! In this case, we're looking at the ideal/legend of the both of them potentially being toxic adepts - which doesn't quite cut the mustard.

[Sengir]

Just take a 6/6 contact free sprite for that.

Dissonant free sprite

[Mongoose]

Again let me stress that I am not applying the same appeal for all toxics.. A lot of toxics are clearly deranged and evil but ALL of them?.. that is being racist..

Rascist? How does race figure into it? Maybe you mean prejudiced... and its not really, not if you define "toxic mage" to MEAN deranged, which is what the book does. You can be an extreme anti-authoriatarian mage who tries to tear down the system without being a toxic mage (in fact, there's even mentor spirits that more or less require this) but you CAN'T be a toxic mage (IE, gain the benefits given to toxic mages) without exposing yourself to mind-warping influences "man was not meant to know".

[V-Origin]

Robin Hood exists as much as V does. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

The both of them exist as much as shadowrun does. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[V-Origin]

Robin Hood was very clear in that he didn't want to bring down the Crown, only the corrupt infuences that stood in its stead while Richard was on his Crusade. He upheld just laws, and ensured that the people could buy food and pay their taxes.

All this doesn't really matter in the end - you wish to justify being toxic, and you aren't going to find justification here. Just houserule your Force-20-Spirit-Inhabiting-Cybernetic-Great-Dragon-Corpses, and don't tell us what happens.

What if my toxics only wanna bring down megacorps and the most evil/corrupt govt figures yet leave the more benevolent govt figures alone?

So say a megacorp is tendering for a project against a lesser but more benevolent corp. My toxics launch a campaign against the megacorp so that they lose the project to the lesser corp.

That fits the criteria of both toxic agendas and the robin hood mentalities.

[V-Origin]

I don't think it's a subjective one - those guy's goal is expressely stated as 'making civilization crumble under it's own weight'. I fail to see any way of doing that that wouldn't result in a massive (as in at least 50%) dieoff as said civilization has enabled population numbers that can't be supported without it's infrastructure. The transition period during which the crumbling happen and something new emerges will be especially bad in that regard. He won't cause those death directly, but neither did Pol Pot handle personnaly the casualties his regime has caused. The dieoff might not be the goal, but it's an inevitable and either accepted or blisfully ignored consequence of succes.

It's a rather constant pattern in history that when a minority tries to forces it's opinion on the majority, said majority tends to get hit hard as the extremist often try to'wipe the slate clean' to write their ideals on it. The more extreme the minority's ideology, the more thorough the wiping, and in the case of the havocs, you'll have to look hard to find equally extreme.

What if, in the eyes of the group, what is defined as "making civilization crumble under its own weight so that humanity can start afresh" equates taking out the top AAA and AA megas so that smaller corps and hopefully more benevolent corps will rise up and make the world a better place?

In your eyes, your toxics will kill many innocents..

In my eyes, my toxics only kill mega wageslaves and leave the lower class alone.. Hell they even give part of the megas' loot to the poor..

[Fortinbras]

What if my toxics only wanna bring down megacorps and the most evil/corrupt govt figures yet leave the more benevolent govt figures alone?

So say a megacorp is tendering for a project against a lesser but more benevolent corp. My toxics launch a campaign against the megacorp so that they lose the project to the lesser corp.

That fits the criteria of both toxic agendas and the robin hood mentalities.

That's not a toxic shaman, that's called a Shadowrunner.
Toxic shamans want to bring about chaos and disorder, not benevolence. Their beef isn't with folk being treated poorly, their beef is with the structure of civilization as a whole.
More over, they can't help it. Even if they want a benevolent corp to be in charge, they are driven by a sociopathic force to create chaos, not benevolent order.
Sociopath. As in not being able to care how people feel.

Robin Hood wanted law and order. His beef was with a totalitarian cleptocracy, not the crown as a whole. What he wanted was for all, rich and poor, to be treated equally under the law.

I don't have the space to get into Alan Moore's personal brand of crazy, but V wasn't fighting for anarchy, he was fighting against fascism. Metaphorically he was fighting Margaret Thatcher.
As should we all.

EDIT
And Mr. Moore is still waiting for you to get the name of his work right. If you don't fear toxic shamans, fear crazy, bearded British writers with an axe to grind.

[V-Origin]

Over time, however, these guys are gonna go nuts. As I understand it (I generally stay on the techy side of Shadowrun), their mentor spirits are the literal embodiments of chaotic evil and the use of their power literally corrupts their "soul". Doesn't mean they can't be good anymore than a runner who shoots up K-10 before making a run to donate to an orphanage is evil but that doesn't change the fact that both of them are slowly going to go mad and probably wind up killing everyone around them in a brutal manner. No one maintains their sanity in that kind of situation.

It is a whole group of toxics not just one person.

Let's deal with the mentor spirits first. What if the mentor spirit is a god of change? A God whose primary interest is wiping out the evil and unfortunately powerful/influential upper hierarchies of society and giving a chance to the poor lower classes and smaller corps to take over projects previously owned by the megacorps?

For eg, Lone Star or KE is looking after security in seattle. If KE loses the contract due to sabotage by the toxics, and a just and fair security corp takes over the seattle security law enforcement contract, doesn't that fit both the havoc criteria as well as the robin hood "i am not evil" criteria?

How are the toxic mages, who is following a god who is sponsoring a change for the better, suppose to go madder and madder if they are doing good?

Being toxic doesn't mean you have to be evil but it's a pretty clear indication of which way the character is headed. V and Robin Hood and basically anyone else you want to mention didn't have these problems but they also didn't shoot heroin every morning. These are the kind of forces which alter your mentality in ways you can't really fight. Sure, a toxic could have good intentions and could use his powers righteously for awhile but it's a losing fight, he's trying to retain his humanity and while he's still using these powers they're going to change his mentality, drain his humanity, and there's no way for him to get that back unless he stops using them.

No it is not clear.

By doing good and removing megacorps from power so that smaller corps and the small man have a better chance at better lives, I figure the toxic mages' humanity are going to get stronger.

This is not star wars. This is shadownrun. Besides where are the rules for toxics going mad if you so strongly suggest that every toxic will go mad?

If you're planning on playing one, that's cool but this is pretty much you're pre-defined character arc: a descent into madness until you quit or die. If you want to play an anarchist shaman, play an anarchist shaman, there's no lack of "dark" anarchist groups fighting for their perception of good. Toxic is the deep, messed up part of that pool and there's not really any reason to try and move them into the "misunderstood" category. Besides the fact that if you're planning on playing one, by definition, there's a one million nuyen bounty on your head posted by the closest thing Shadowrun has to Jesus. Why would any group of runners pass up that bounty so they can run with a guy who will probably degenerate into a raving madman, sorry, a raving madman with serious magical firepower and a tiny Joker on his shoulders telling him to BURN EVERYTHING.

The bounty is a small matter as long as you keep the identities under wrap.

Please show the RAW which says that every toxic will definitely descend into madness.

The Robin Hood on his shoulders are only telling him to burn the megas, not burn everything.

There's no such thing as a kindly old toxic shaman. You quit or you go mad.

There is such a thing as a dark avenger who upholds justice who doesn't quit and who doesn't go mad because he is doing the just thingy.

[V-Origin]

That's not a toxic shaman, that's called a Shadowrunner.
Toxic shamans want to bring about chaos and disorder, not benevolence. Their beef isn't with folk being treated poorly, their beef is with the structure of civilization as a whole.
More over, they can't help it. Even if they want a benevolent corp to be in charge, they are driven by a sociopathic force to create chaos, not benevolent order.
Sociopath. As in not being able to care how people feel.

Robin Hood wanted law and order. His beef was with a totalitarian cleptocracy, not the crown as a whole. What he wanted was for all, rich and poor, to be treated equally under the law.

I don't have the space to get into Alan Moore's personal brand of crazy, but V wasn't fighting for anarchy, he was fighting against fascism. Metaphorically he was fighting Margaret Thatcher.
As should we all.

EDIT
And Mr. Moore is still waiting for you to get the name of his work right. If you don't fear toxic shamans, fear crazy, bearded British writers with an axe to grind.

Well, my toxic shamans wanna bring benevolence by changing the structure of society... ie the AAA megacorps..

They also care how the poor and lower classes feel and do everything in their power to ensure the poor and lower classes get better lives..

See my toxic shamans has this plan to counterfeit electronics, medicines at lower costs but with the same quality and sell them cheaply to the masses.

At the same time, this plan will undercut the megas and hurt them. One stone hitting 2 birds. How is this not benevolence?

[Fortinbras]

Toxic shamans can't support justice. Justice is a form of order and toxic shamans CAN NOT support order. they are driven by chaos and the need to overthrow civilization. They are not driven by a need to over throw part of civilization, but structure as a whole.
If you intend to leave a stone, any stone of civilization left standing, you aren't playing a toxic shaman.

Justice is incompatible with Chaos, thus incompatible with the toxics.

[V-Origin]

Toxic Shamans represent a Lovecraftian evil that sits within all men's souls. Their goals may have been pure to begin with, but the nature of destruction and power is an inherently corrupting influence.
That is the place they hold in the story. To play them as heroes is to play the game backwards, in an old RPG parlance.

To the point of moral relativism, it can be said that George Washington wanted to overthrow a corrupt system as well, but we aren't talking about polite freedom fighters here, we're talking about people who want to overthrow an entire system upon which people's lives depend to suite their own whim and fancy.
They have decided the system is evil and they have decided they have the right to destroy it. They didn't ask me if I want it destroyed. I might like my life in my MCT Archology and my kids might not want to get blown up because they eat at McDonalds.
If the shamans just wanted to get out of the thumbs of the megas, they have options. Move to Greenland or Amazonia. Tons of places in the 6th world civilization can't touch.
These shamans have proposed that a system of their own devising is greater than the will of the individual. And as that individual, you don't get to decide how I live my life. In that way they are exactly like the corps, only with less money. They are just as evil, but with an evil spirit guiding them, making them more evil.

Well in the eyes of my toxics, as long as you are working for megas, you are fair game.. even your kids are fair game..

however if you are working for a up and coming corp which has better motivations, then you are safe..

as i said, robin hood, .. the dictators of SR's world are the megas and it will a blessing to the people to take them out..

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

[Fortinbras]

Well, my toxic shamans wanna bring benevolence by changing the structure of society... ie the AAA megacorps..

They also care how the poor and lower classes feel and do everything in their power to ensure the poor and lower classes get better lives..

See my toxic shamans has this plan to counterfeit electronics, medicines at lower costs but with the same quality and sell them cheaply to the masses.

At the same time, this plan will undercut the megas and hurt them. One stone hitting 2 birds. How is this not benevolence?

You don't get to decide what a toxic shaman can want. It's spelled out pretty strait in the book you quoted what it is.
What you want to do is what used to be called "playing the game backward"
Like playing a D&D troop as a group of goblins or playing In Nomine with the demons as good guys.

If you want to play a Robin Hood with toxic powers, that's fine, but it isn't RAW and it isn't thematically correct either.
What you want to do and what the RAW says toxic shamans are just don't mesh.

EDIT
It's kind of like saying that MY automatic gun doesn't have recoil.

[V-Origin]

Toxic shamans can't support justice. Justice is a form of order and toxic shamans CAN NOT support order. they are driven by chaos and the need to overthrow civilization. They are not driven by a need to over throw part of civilization, but structure as a whole.
If you intend to leave a stone, any stone of civilization left standing, you aren't playing a toxic shaman.

Justice is incompatible with Chaos, thus incompatible with the toxics.

Your toxics may follow CHaos, but My toxics are not.

They are following Change and Justice.

They want to overthrow the megas without causing harm to the people. They are aiming to destroy the kings so that a new and better king can be crowned.

In fact, on more than one occassion, my toxics of CHange and Justice will bring down your toxics who are following Chaos and overthrow the whole structure, thus harming the people.

There IS a difference.

[V-Origin]

You don't get to decide what a toxic shaman can want. It's spelled out pretty strait in the book you quoted what it is.
What you want to do is what used to be called "playing the game backward"
Like playing a D&D troop as a group of goblins or playing In Nomine with the demons as good guys.

If you want to play a Robin Hood with toxic powers, that's fine, but it isn't RAW and it isn't thematically correct either.
What you want to do and what the RAW says toxic shamans are just don't mesh.

EDIT
It's kind of like saying that MY automatic gun doesn't have recoil.

The RAW doesn't say that every toxic is a mass-murdering sociopath.

There is black and white and countless shades in between. The RAW states that very clearly.

[V-Origin]

EDIT
It's kind of like saying that MY automatic gun doesn't have recoil.

I am saying MY automatic gun only has a LITTLE recoil.

Your automatic gun has PLENTY of recoil.

[Dahrken]

A Corporation, no matter how "benevolent", is structure, hierarchy and rules. Even morality (any morality, like barring yourself from using terror tactics even if they would be more effective in bringing down their target) or justice is an arbitrary rule. The purpose of the Havoc is to tear down all those falses pretenses to bring about a truly blank slate, unrestricted by anything. Think anarchists on steroid and K-10, nihilsm to the hilt.

What you propose is NOT a group of Havocs, but rather followers of the Adversary, probably leaning on the twisted side. And maybe even not.