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> HMHVV infected Characters and the Law, What rights do the infected have?
TygerTyger
post Jan 4 2011, 02:25 PM
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Runner Companion notes that only 35 nations around the world afford rights to HMHVV infected characters, and then only to some - what does this mean in real terms, and what nations are those?

I am returning to Shadowrun after about 12 years away from the game, and have convinced my group to give the game a whirl. One of the players has come up with a concept that includes being infected, specifically a vampire. My take was that KE forces on the ground, in Seattle (where we'll be playing for the first little while) would likely react negatively to him, were they to become aware of his Infected status - after all, vamps aren't like ghouls, they can't get their food from the dead that have willed their bodies to be eaten. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

It would seem that the hurdles to playing an Infected character will largely depend on the type of game being played and the style of the GM. In a magic heavy game, they are far more likely to be Assensed and thus exposed for what they are (leaving aside any Masking of their aura of course) whereas in a less magical game that risk is far lower. Things like that.

Does anyone have any thoughts on the topic, and in particular any sources that they can point me to for further readings?
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Irion
post Jan 4 2011, 02:56 PM
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I do not know much of the physologie of the infected. But since Nosferato spit out their internal Organs, there have to be differances.
My first guess would be, that it is possible to expose them via infrared.

So it is less dependend from the campaign and more a question of the GM.
Some GMs do not want to bring this kind of drawbacks to their game, unless it leads to pre written story arc.
Others give you a beating if you forget to mention to but on gloves.
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Sephiroth
post Jan 4 2011, 02:56 PM
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Fortunately for your player, assensing is virtually the only thing he has to worry about in terms of things that could expose him. Vampires are physically much harder to spot than ghouls, nosferatu, and the like.

Running Wild has an entire chapter of debatable pertinence on the Infected. According to that chapter, the following nations and corps are friendly to the Infected: Amazonia, Azamando (duh), Aztlan, CalFree, Czech Republic, some country called Euskal Herria, France, the Philippines, Salish-Sidhe COuncil, Yakut, Aztechnology, Cavalier Arms, DeBeers-Omnitech, Draco Foundation, Evo, SK, Wuxing, and ZetaImpChem.
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TygerTyger
post Jan 4 2011, 03:41 PM
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Thanks Sephiroth, that was exactly what I was looking for! Now, to Amazon to find this Running Wild book!
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boskop-albatros
post Jan 8 2011, 04:23 AM
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It's been A long time since I posted, I just got the sixth world almanac-It seems now I in the shadowrun metaplot 2070s that the Infected are starting to get Rights; While I agree with some rights Their has to be a treatment or as the Mana Levals rise the whole earth could be HMHVVized-In another thread I saw Ghouls referred to as the New Orks, Have any Ghoulsploitaition Tirds or Sims Come out yet in the 2070s I think Gholesploitation would be just as cool and Groundbreaking as Orxsploitation.
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WyldKnight
post Jan 8 2011, 05:57 AM
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A game wouldn't even have to be magic heavy to spot a vamp. Sporting a Parashield contract is doable for any decent security and that comes with dual natured critters. When Hermes the Hell Hound starts barking at the pale guy and begins firing up his torch then expect some issues.

On the technological side since it says in the description that Vampires hearts slow down. A simple scan of some sort, be it ultrasound or what have you, would show their inhumanely slow heart beat. With the Shedim scares it's not surprising if the security has been trained to report such odd results and to detain the people until they get a better look at them.
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V-Origin
post Jan 8 2011, 10:56 AM
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QUOTE (TygerTyger @ Jan 5 2011, 01:25 AM) *
Runner Companion notes that only 35 nations around the world afford rights to HMHVV infected characters, and then only to some - what does this mean in real terms, and what nations are those?

I am returning to Shadowrun after about 12 years away from the game, and have convinced my group to give the game a whirl. One of the players has come up with a concept that includes being infected, specifically a vampire. My take was that KE forces on the ground, in Seattle (where we'll be playing for the first little while) would likely react negatively to him, were they to become aware of his Infected status - after all, vamps aren't like ghouls, they can't get their food from the dead that have willed their bodies to be eaten. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

It would seem that the hurdles to playing an Infected character will largely depend on the type of game being played and the style of the GM. In a magic heavy game, they are far more likely to be Assensed and thus exposed for what they are (leaving aside any Masking of their aura of course) whereas in a less magical game that risk is far lower. Things like that.

Does anyone have any thoughts on the topic, and in particular any sources that they can point me to for further readings?


to fulfill the mass-murdering sociopathic requirements of being a secret society of toxic mages, our mages hunt down any and all infected as part of our objectives and drain their karma/essence/magic attributes before giving them a merciful chance of rebirth into a higher state of being..

we see killing all infected metahumans as euthanasia .. afterall they are truly infected and living a miserable state of existence.. even being a troll/orc is better than being an infected and to kill them are acts of mercy indeed..

also, we will be fulfilling the havoc toxic requirement of mass-murdering so that humanity can restart afresh.. imagine if every and all infected personnel are wiped off the face of this earth.. wouldn't that cleanse humanity and evolve the state of humanity upwards?

and let's not forget, infected can pass their disease onto unwilling victims very easily.. plus the fact that murdering organizations like Tamous exist to kidnap live victims for the subsistence of the infected.. we would be indeed be doing the SR world a favour and protecting innocent victims by culling all infected...
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Charon
post Jan 8 2011, 04:10 PM
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In my opinion, in a campaign, all the players should be infected or none of them. When all are infected, they all share the themes and you can build around that. If only one is, he'll take much more space then the others because you always must take his conditions in consideration and the poor suckers (pun intended) who plays more mundane characters needs to constantly accomodate him (Work mostly at night, pause during an extended run to help him feed etc.). And if he choses to feed normally on metahumans, he is forcing the hand of every other players to create PCs who will find that acceptable. That can be potentially annoying. Most of the PCs I've ever designed wouldn't be too shy about putting a bullet in the brain of a vampire, especially one that behaves typically.

Personnally, I am dubious of this metaplot trend to have the infected gain too much acceptance. Unless you can find a way to feed them in an entirely artificial fashion, with the cost coming out of their own pocket (SR has precious few welfare states...) and they accept to wear a tag of some sort, I'd expect authorities to keep offering bounties on their head. Even the 'nice' ones are a blight on society as long as they must submit to their dietary requirement. Even fluffy kitch vampires who feed exclusively from blood banks are not exactly kosher; you may not realize this, but feeding a city's population of vampire isn't exactly what a blood bank ressources' are supposed to be dedicated toward... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) . The fact that they can spread their disease also strongly militate toward agressive containment unless the government decides it'd be perfectly okay if the entire population became infected one day.

Beside, being shunned because of a disease is half their theme (the other being potentially to preserve some humanity if you play them). If they become accepted, they lose much of their use from a plot perspective. When you'll leanrn your sister became a vampire you'll be thinking "That's so cool! Think of what you'll save in cyberware!" instead of being properly horrified.

The plight of an infected who maintained his humanity is meant to be tragic because, as much as may feel sympathy for him, it doesn't change the fact that all effort to 'contain (with lead if necessary)' the disease is still the correct course.
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TheWanderingJewe...
post Jan 8 2011, 04:22 PM
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Plus people forget at the end of the Day, Ghouls and Vampires are Predators (no if, buts, and wait a minutes about it), and thier dietary requirements will make them see, at the end of the day, everyone else that is sapient as food when push comes to shove. The whole Anne Rice and Twilight rubbish at the end of the day as allegories on human suffering cover the end result: The things eat people or the remains of people. Period.

Most Sixth Worlders are going to see it this way, given how harsh the place is. The Ghoul and Vampire rights thing is a smoke screen in 4th edition to cash in on the Vampire/Twilight crowd anyway.

My Players have very healthy fear of ghouls after the First in the Dawn series when all they had was a technical, a HMG, sidearms and hatchets between them and being Dinner for Asamondo Ghuls in Lagos.

To counter balance this, they know of a Nosferatu in Italy that has the non-infectous trait. Not that he isn't creepy as hell. and I played that up. Just because he can't infect you doesn't mean he doesn't see you as dinner
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WyldKnight
post Jan 8 2011, 05:55 PM
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QUOTE (TheWanderingJewels @ Jan 8 2011, 09:22 AM) *
Most Sixth Worlders are going to see it this way, given how harsh the place is. The Ghoul and Vampire rights thing is a smoke screen in 4th edition to cash in on the Vampire/Twilight crowd anyway.


Considering that HMHVV is in a lot of a ways the SR version of AIDS I think them getting rights has more to do with Gay rights then anything else and makes a lot more sense considering most SR fans wouldn't be fans of Twilight. Catering to that crowd would make little financial success if any.

Charon:

Wait, so Shadowrunners can be ok with killing people for money but suddenly it's weird when one of theirs does it to survive? I'm going to be honest as long as the Leech is feeding off the opposition and not me I could care less. Either way the guy is dead, at least this way he is a part of the food chain and keeps my team mate full and happy.

Working at night isn't an issue for most since that's the best time to sneak around. If you need to go out during the day a simple spell keeps the vampire safe. How is stopping to feed a problem? They loose essence once a month. Even if they hold out for five months all it takes is a good kill or two to bring them back up to speed. That's not an issue, that's barely one job.
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InfinityzeN
post Jan 8 2011, 11:45 PM
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Most runners have no issue with killing people to make their living. They will take issue with working with something that might decide to eat them. Also, even with all the noise about giving rights to infected, there still are bounties offered on them in most parts of the world. (The rights push is for ghouls anyway, not vampires. Ghouls can eat the dead, vampires have to eat the living)

You also have to remember that wards will bounce a vampire and they are actually more common then you think. In addition, there are lots of things mundanes can have that will mark an infected.
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WyldKnight
post Jan 9 2011, 12:07 AM
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I wouldn't trust people who kill others for money any more then I would trust something that may eat me. They're both predators and for the most part monsters in their own way. There isn't a reason a guy who would kill someone for money is any more trust worthy then someone who would shoot the person half to death and then finish em off by draining them of essence for money. The point is they both kill for money. One is just a WEEEEEE bit better because he has no choice in the matter. Quite frankly I would trust the vampire more because hey at least he's honest about it. I keep him fed he doesn't eat me.


Ah Wards, they're so useful for security against the things you wouldn't otherwise notice. What things can mark them?

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InfinityzeN
post Jan 9 2011, 12:13 AM
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There are lots of plants and bacteria that react to the supernatural. Some are used in this sheets in walls to stop things, some are put in little plastic bottles that glow when near ghost and dual natured, etc. There are also plants that will react, which are often used in landscaping.
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Ascalaphus
post Jan 9 2011, 12:15 AM
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QUOTE (Charon @ Jan 8 2011, 06:10 PM) *
In my opinion, in a campaign, all the players should be infected or none of them. When all are infected, they all share the themes and you can build around that. If only one is, he'll take much more space then the others because you always must take his conditions in consideration and the poor suckers (pun intended) who plays more mundane characters needs to constantly accomodate him (Work mostly at night, pause during an extended run to help him feed etc.).


Very good point.

QUOTE (Charon @ Jan 8 2011, 06:10 PM) *
And if he choses to feed normally on metahumans, he is forcing the hand of every other players to create PCs who will find that acceptable. That can be potentially annoying. Most of the PCs I've ever designed wouldn't be too shy about putting a bullet in the brain of a vampire, especially one that behaves typically.


Yeah!

In an RPG group, it's necessary for all the PCs to be at least somewhat able to stand each other. Playing a vampire means you force all the other players to play characters that are okay with that. That's a huge imposition!

I'd certainly have trouble with that. I like to play somewhat immoral PCs, but not completely unscrupulous ones. Vampirism would definitely go too far. I wouldn't want to work with someone whose nature is to eat me.
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V-Origin
post Jan 9 2011, 02:18 AM
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QUOTE (WyldKnight @ Jan 9 2011, 03:55 AM) *
Considering that HMHVV is in a lot of a ways the SR version of AIDS I think them getting rights has more to do with Gay rights then anything else and makes a lot more sense considering most SR fans wouldn't be fans of Twilight. Catering to that crowd would make little financial success if any.

Charon:

Wait, so Shadowrunners can be ok with killing people for money but suddenly it's weird when one of theirs does it to survive? I'm going to be honest as long as the Leech is feeding off the opposition and not me I could care less. Either way the guy is dead, at least this way he is a part of the food chain and keeps my team mate full and happy.

Working at night isn't an issue for most since that's the best time to sneak around. If you need to go out during the day a simple spell keeps the vampire safe. How is stopping to feed a problem? They loose essence once a month. Even if they hold out for five months all it takes is a good kill or two to bring them back up to speed. That's not an issue, that's barely one job.


It is more like leprosy than aids.. at least with aids, you are safe as long as you avoid sexual contact..
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Vermithrax
post Jan 9 2011, 05:21 AM
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QUOTE (InfinityzeN @ Jan 8 2011, 06:45 PM) *
You also have to remember that wards will bounce a vampire and they are actually more common then you think. In addition, there are lots of things mundanes can have that will mark an infected.


Is there an update for vampires somewhere or something I missed? I'm looking in the SR4 20th and it doesnt state vampires are dual-natured. How do wards bounce them?
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Sengir
post Jan 9 2011, 01:32 PM
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QUOTE (TheWanderingJewels @ Jan 8 2011, 05:22 PM) *
The Ghoul and Vampire rights thing is a smoke screen in 4th edition to cash in on the Vampire/Twilight crowd anyway.

Bug City is a 4th Ed book?
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Eimi
post Jan 10 2011, 03:45 AM
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QUOTE (pattyhulez @ Jan 8 2011, 07:18 PM) *
It is more like leprosy than aids.. at least with aids, you are safe as long as you avoid sexual contact..


Except you aren't, with the hundreds of thousands of people that received HIV+ tainted blood (people who were minding their own business and got ambushed by a vampire (who didn't then bother to kill them before the change)).

Or the millions, worldwide, who were born to an HIV+ mother (second generation ghouls).

Or dirty needles...or contaminated transplant material...or...

The AIDS metaphor works, particularly considering the large number of people out there that, even today, still spout stuff like "we should just put them all in camps" or "just execute them when they're diagnosed, problem solved" and so-forth.

Also, vampires aren't dual-natured. So wards won't do much to them they wouldn't do to any other person (assuming they aren't awakened, which not all vampires are, it just tends to spark deeply buried latent awakenings that likely wouldn't have surfaced otherwise, so awakened vampires are more common, statistically, than they should be).
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Eimi
post Jan 10 2011, 03:49 AM
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QUOTE (Sengir @ Jan 9 2011, 06:32 AM) *
Bug City is a 4th Ed book?


Clearly, that one book where a shadowtalker mentions a friend of hers that'd been a vampire and a totally stand-up guy that only accepted "donations" from willing people who was murdered by a wannabe "vampire hunter" was a very early 4E book. Somehow, it seems like I read it years before, though...
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Starmage21
post Jan 10 2011, 04:29 AM
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QUOTE (Ascalaphus @ Jan 8 2011, 08:15 PM) *
Very good point.



Yeah!

In an RPG group, it's necessary for all the PCs to be at least somewhat able to stand each other. Playing a vampire means you force all the other players to play characters that are okay with that. That's a huge imposition!

I'd certainly have trouble with that. I like to play somewhat immoral PCs, but not completely unscrupulous ones. Vampirism would definitely go too far. I wouldn't want to work with someone whose nature is to eat me.



This is sarcasm, right? So hard to tell with text...
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boskop-albatros
post Jan 10 2011, 07:16 AM
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all of these arguments are valid the problem with HMHVV is there needs to be somekind of treatment or cure. The infected have a right to a cure just like the uninfected have the right to not want to get HMHVV. The problem with HMHVV rights outing too far is that there is eventualy somekind of glamorization of HMHVV at least at the fringe of the HMHVV rights community-which also leads me to ask is there such a thing as Ghoul/Vampire/Banshee/Windigo HMHVV Posers? yes Ghoul and Other HMHVV posers I think of everything;which also leads me to say the New HMHVV rights concern are just a reflection of the rising mana levels and just a warm-up for when in the later 2070s all the unseen earthdawn races start appearing and demanding Their Rights, But I will save that for it's own Thread (IMG:style_emoticons/default/spin.gif)
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Ascalaphus
post Jan 10 2011, 11:22 AM
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QUOTE (Eimi @ Jan 10 2011, 05:45 AM) *
The AIDS metaphor works, particularly considering the large number of people out there that, even today, still spout stuff like "we should just put them all in camps" or "just execute them when they're diagnosed, problem solved" and so-forth.


AIDS doesn't require you to have intercourse and spread your infection or at least drain life-force to stay alive yourself. So the metaphor doesn't really work all that well.

QUOTE (Starmage21 @ Jan 10 2011, 06:29 AM) *
This is sarcasm, right? So hard to tell with text...


No, it's not sarcasm.
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Nath
post Jan 10 2011, 11:45 AM
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QUOTE (TygerTyger @ Jan 4 2011, 03:25 PM) *
Runner Companion notes that only 35 nations around the world afford rights to HMHVV infected characters, and then only to some - what does this mean in real terms, and what nations are those?
QUOTE
Running Wild, page 106
Infected-Friendly Nations
Amazonia
Asamando
Aztlan
California Free State
Czech Republic
Euskal Herria
France
Philippines
Salish-Shidhe Council
Yakut

[...]

There are 35 countries in the world that recognize the Infected as something other than wild animals which need to bencontrolled. [CAS] is not one of those countries, and neither is the UCAS. Both still carry laws on the books establishing bounties for the Infected, though those laws are seldom enforced these days. Many Infected are eligible to acquire criminal SINs and live as second-class citizens, at the expense of being monitored 24 hours a day. Ghouls have made enormous headway in the UCAS in search of their civil rights, but technically they could still be killed for the bounty. This is beginning to change, as some groundbreaking legislation has been introduced in the UCAS Senate to strike down the bounties on ghouls and loup-garou and offer them a path to citizenship. Similar legislation is expected in the CAS sometime this year.
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Tiralee
post Jan 10 2011, 01:17 PM
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They have the right to run, and to die tired...

-Issues with Vamps, et al, since 2nd ed. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

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Starmage21
post Jan 10 2011, 02:24 PM
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QUOTE (Ascalaphus @ Jan 10 2011, 07:22 AM) *
AIDS doesn't require you to have intercourse and spread your infection or at least drain life-force to stay alive yourself. So the metaphor doesn't really work all that well.



No, it's not sarcasm.


Well then it should be, because creating characters that will get along well enough to be played together is part of the gamer's social contract.
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