Are DocWagon and CrashCart authorized to open fire on Lone Star/KE? Options

[V-Origin]

say a team of shadowrunners are trapped in a house surrounded by Lone Star/KE police personnel..

if they call DocWagon/Crashcart for help, do DocWagon/Crashcart have the legal juice to open fire on Lone Star/KE and pull the runners out of danger?

i know that Lone Star or KE are the designated police for Seattle.. but in the end they are just private security companies.. if it goes to court it would be a legal case of a private company against another private company and not the city against a private company ... right?

even though one private company is working for the interests of the city...

[Stahlseele]

This depends, as far as i understood, only on the status of the building.
If it's exterritorial, then they won't do so much as ask nicely if they may retrieve one of their customers.
If it's NOT exterritorial? They have SWAT teams with Mages and people close to cyberzombie-status for a reason.
What Corp. CARES about authorization in the world of shadowrun? If you have the man/financial power, you do what you want.

[jaellot]

I know in regards to a team on corp grounds they don't go in. I would personally say they will not open fire on a LS/KE team. Given that the setting is in a house I could see one of two ways this goes down-

1- DW/CC gets there first. Patch up, haul 'em out. They get a call from LS/KE that their clients are wanted for "Blah", what ever it was that had them running to said house. DW/CC hands them over, having performed their contract.

2- LS/KE gets there first. DW/CC inform LS/KE that they have clients in there, so LS/KE would allow them to patch up who ever needed such inside, before arresting them.

DW/CC are not "Get Out Of Jail Free" cards, alas. They will make it so you CAN go to jail, as opposed of going into your choice of take-out container (Box, baggie, sponge, dustbuster...).

[Stahlseele]

You are PAYING them to get you out of WHEREEVER and to get you into their own hospital and to fix you up.
AFTERWARDS, you face the simple problem, that their hospitals ain't exterritorial either, so the police can and will come in and get you, when you're not close enough to die anymore.

[LurkerOutThere]

When LS/KE/whoever is acting as the police they effectively have legal authority on the city streets of most bergs, other corporate forces generally won't fire upon them and vice versa because their legal relationship is established. For all intents and purposes LS/KE are the police, docwagon firing on the police to extract wanted fugitives would be breaking the law. Docwagon won't break the law on your behalf.

As others have stated there is a chance that if your shot in a conflict with police docwagon might come and pluck you out and then LS/KE will just attempt to arrest you when your released by docwagon. Theoreticly Docwagon will hand you over nice and tidy, but that is where bribes and high loyalty contacts come in.

[Ascalaphus]

DocWagon wouldn't fire on police in that police force's jurisdiction, and LS/KE is acting as police, so no, they can't extract you from predicaments on UCAS soil.

However, DocWagon is an AA corporation, so their hospitals can (and probably will) be extraterritorial ground. Once you're in the hospital, LS/KE can only file for extradition.

So if you're on UCAS soil, LS/KE wants to arrest you, and you're wounded, they won't let DW get to you until DW promises to extradite after treatment, or to transport you to a UCAS hospital.

I'm not sure if ambulances are covered by extraterritoriality; they might be. You might be safe as soon as you're in the ambulance, but check with your GM on that before taking the gamble.

[Stahlseele]

Ahem, Doc-Waggon itself isn't an AA Corp, if i ain't misremembering.
They BELONG to an AA Corp.

[Ascalaphus]

I'm having trouble finding a direct mention of DocWagon as an AA corp, but AFAIK they are independent. Also:

>DocWagon and its counterparts are inordinately popular among
runners for a reason: their clinics maintain extraterritorial status,
and a patient’s location and records are generally confidential. You
should check your contract, though—in many jurisdictions, DocWagon
policy is to acknowledge extradition requests from Lone Star and
other corporate security institutions following treatment.
> Butch

> Yeah, but as I recently found out, they’ve been known to ignore
requests if your contract is Platinum or better.
> Hard Exit

And you can only have extraterritoriality if you're at least AA or belong to an AA+.

Edit: I checked SR4, SR4A, Arsenal, Augmentation, Corporate Guide, Runner's Companion and Unwired. Surprisingly few mentions of DocWagon at all really.

[EKBT81]

Ahem, Doc-Waggon itself isn't an AA Corp, if i ain't misremembering.
They BELONG to an AA Corp.

AFAIK DocWagon is an AA in it's own right. At least it was in SR3. I'm not 100% up to speed on 4th ed.

[Yerameyahu]

… What's the distinction there, anyway? Either way, "their clinics maintain extraterritorial status".

[Ascalaphus]

… What's the distinction there, anyway? Either way, "their clinics maintain extraterritorial status".

One of the selling points of DocWagon for runners is that it doesn't belong to another corp, which can be important.

[Yerameyahu]

Ah, makes sense. I've never actually seen a runner with DocWagon.

[Ascalaphus]

It's not really all that useful in SR4, with the generous First Aid rules. Also, since DW can't really help you against police or on corporate property, they're only useful for mundane accidents and perhaps when you're being bothered by gangers. Even so, you'd need to buy time for DW to get to you.

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

I'm not sure if ambulances are covered by extraterritoriality; they might be. You might be safe as soon as you're in the ambulance, but check with your GM on that before taking the gamble.

Given the fact that extraterritoriality is basically that a AA+ corp is considered a nation in its own right. An ambulance clearly stamped as belonging to Doc Wagon would be considered the same as a diplomatic vehicle, wouldn't it?

[Mäx]

Yes DocWagon is an independent corporation, the organization was founded in Atlanta in 2037, in 2042 it franshiced it operation to rest of UCAS(except Seattle) and in 2043 it went international.
That's from their history in Neo-Anarchist Guide to Real Life(damm writing even a short amount of info like that out of an old book, really makes me appreciate the copy-pastable pdf versions of the newer books"

[Ascalaphus]

Given the fact that extraterritoriality is basically that a AA+ corp is considered a nation in its own right. An ambulance clearly stamped as belonging to Doc Wagon would be considered the same as a diplomatic vehicle, wouldn't it?

Possibly. But there's usually some sort of counter to that - like disallowing those vehicles to enter certain areas. Diplomatic immunity does have limits; senior diplomats tend to have much more immunity than ancillary staff for example. Most likely LS/KE can declare an area a Crime Scene which DW is only allowed to enter if they waive that immunity.

Yes DocWagon is an independent corporation, the organization was founded in Atlanta in 2037, in 2042 it franshiced it operation to rest of UCAS(except Seattle) and in 2043 it went international.
That's from their history in Neo-Anarchist Guide to Real Life(damm writing even a short amount of info like that out of an old book, really makes me appreciate the copy-pastable pdf versions of the newer books"

Yes, and being able to search through them with Ctrl-F!

[hermit]

Are DocWagon and CrashCart authorized to open fire on Lone Star/KE?

No.

They're not going to. They're not a get-out-of-shit card. Even if they bail you out of a firefight with gangbangers, they will charge you for any cost. Neo-Anarchist's Guide to Real Life (an old sourcebiook) is very clear and informative there.

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

Possibly. But there's usually some sort of counter to that - like disallowing those vehicles to enter certain areas. Diplomatic immunity does have limits; senior diplomats tend to have much more immunity than ancillary staff for example. Most likely LS/KE can declare an area a Crime Scene which DW is only allowed to enter if they waive that immunity.

I agree with you on that, but what I mean is: if DW get you first and is driving you to one of their facilities, there is a chance you might escape with the right contacts/bribes. I mean, they are bound by contract to arrive in less than ten minutes or they won't charge extra and take you safely and alive to one of their hospitals for treatment. After that you are on your own. In this case, LS/KE would probably ask for extradiction and even ask to send officers to guarantee the prisoner won't escape.

edit: grammar correction

[Ascalaphus]

I agree with you on that, but what I mean is: if DW get you first and is driving you to one of their facilities, there is a chance you might escape with the right contacts/bribes. I mean, they are bound by contract to arrive in less than ten minutes or they won't charge extra and take you safely and alive to one of their hospitals for treatment. After that you are on yourself. In this case, LS/KE would probably ask for extradiction and even ask to send officers to guarantee the prisoner won't escape.

Yes, it seems DW does have some uses for runners, as a way to evade arrest. Just make sure to be in the ambulance before LS/KE gets its act together, and to be out of the hospital before the extradition paperwork clears (which can take a looong time, if your DW contract is really good.)

[Megu]

It's not really all that useful in SR4, with the generous First Aid rules. Also, since DW can't really help you against police or on corporate property, they're only useful for mundane accidents and perhaps when you're being bothered by gangers. Even so, you'd need to buy time for DW to get to you.

I've noticed that. With how fast you bleed out at negative health, you'll either be dead or healed one way or another before they get there. So I've been sort of houseruling that players with a DW or similar contract can spend an edge point while they're under to stabilize until they get there. That's generous, I know, but I'm desperately trying to compensate for the fact that my players are, as I've put it before, pants on head retarded.

My guess is that, as far as non-megacorporate property, they would not open fire on police unless fired upon first, in which case it would become a big legal clusterfuck. If the police are there with their guns out DocWagon's unlikely to save you, but once you're in the ambulance, extraterritorial property baby.

[Ascalaphus]

I've noticed that. With how fast you bleed out at negative health, you'll either be dead or healed one way or another before they get there. So I've been sort of houseruling that players with a DW or similar contract can spend an edge point while they're under to stabilize until they get there. That's generous, I know, but I'm desperately trying to compensate for the fact that my players are, as I've put it before, pants on head retarded.

That's an interesting idea actually, especially if a character is shot down while on his own.

I think another use of DW is as a kind of extraction team. Suppose a gang is bothering you; if you can trigger your DW bracelet and survive for 10 minutes, DW will pull you out.

[InfinityzeN]

More like 4 minutes. You don't set a time for greatly reduced prices unless your average time is half of that or less.

[Ascalaphus]

More like 4 minutes. You don't set a time for greatly reduced prices unless your average time is half of that or less.

Yeah, but that's a bit of a gamble then.

[Yerameyahu]

DW isn't thrilled if you use them like that, either. I mean, they don't care, but you'll pay. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

I've noticed that. With how fast you bleed out at negative health, you'll either be dead or healed one way or another before they get there. So I've been sort of houseruling that players with a DW or similar contract can spend an edge point while they're under to stabilize until they get there. That's generous, I know, but I'm desperately trying to compensate for the fact that my players are, as I've put it before, pants on head retarded.

When you said that I went to check the tweaking the rules sidebar in Augmentation to see any suggestion on this part is slower natural healing.

Reading the 'Using First Aid' section on SR4A mentions that the limit of the healing is you first aid skill rating.
Then, when you read medkit says that if you don't have the skill, you may use it as limit. Which means that there is no reason to learn First Aid in the first place...

I get the reason for easier healings, so a player who gets shot won't be out of the game, but I think that fights are dangerous and random and knowing that getting up is harder would prevent people entering places with guns blazing in the first place. Then, you could add rules like the ones found in Tweaking the Rules for a more pink mowhak feel...