War, HUH! What the hell's it good for?, Absolutely nothing! Options

[Cain]

Spun off from this thread: http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?show...t=0&start=0

A letter writing campaign is a nice idea, but the fact is, companies only listen to the bottom line. Only by refusing to buy War! can we send a message that CGL will be sure to hear. And let's face it, War! ireportedly a slipshod product, not worth our money. Here in this thread, I want to discuss other ways of sending a message, as well as getting t!e word out about boycotiting War!

[hermit]

*hands another o*

Also, I think apart from raising awareness with a letter campaigh, the best thing to do is vote with your money, based on the reviews you read, and based on the impression the book gives off when you test read it. Check it with scrutiny. Think about it, whether you really want what's being offered there. If you only want the gear, or some of it, think about the rest, and consider your options.

And no matter whether you buy it, or not, write a review of your impressions.

I don't think a boycott call will do much good, it will reinforce the wagon fort mentality of CGL's. However, if you're disappointed by the book - and odds are you will be - don't take it quietly. Make sure it is noticed. Because then, maybe, the line will be getting more attention again, or - even better - a new publisher.

[Squinky]

I like WAR. But it's cool to share opinions (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Draco18s]

I'm already not-buying it (I also not-bought SR4A, 6WA, CorpGuid, Vice....), therefore I need a way to inform the creator (aka CGL) that I am not-buying the book for a specific reason and the only method I have to do that is to sit right down and write myself a letter as American Public Media's "Marketplace" puts it.*

*When they go to read / answer comments from listeners they play a bit of "theme music" which includes a guy saying in like 1800s slang, "I'm gonna to sit right down / And right myself a letta.~" It's kind of catchy.

[Cain]

Just to clarify, I'm not suggesting that you don't give fan feedback. By all means, write a letter if you feel it's right. But only weak sales will tell them that you mean it. You've got to hit them on the bottom line to make your voice heard.

[Kyoto Kid]

I like WAR. But it's cool to share opinions (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

...OT, but, howdy. Been a while.

[KarmaInferno]

I don't see where the letter writers were saying "don't vote with your wallet, only write letters".





-k

[sabs]

I like WAR. But it's cool to share opinions (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I'm curious
What exactly do you like about it?

[Draco18s]

But only weak sales will tell them that you mean it.

And all those people who buy first and realize they bought a piece of shit? Their only recourse is a letter too. It's not like you can return a PDF download.

Sure, they can tell other people too, which they'll do anyway, but without letters the company won't know what's wrong. There's dozens (hundreds!) of factors in the "bottom line."

[Neraph]

I like WAR. But it's cool to share opinions (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I also like it. I like the setting, I like the shadowtalk through the book (the vast majority of it, actually), I like the feel and scope of the many-tiered war that's enveloped Bogota.

I don't like the editing mishaps - many typographical errors were in the PDF I received, I don't like how most ships have Ballast Tanks II (regardless of what they do IRL, what they do from a game-mechanics view is radically different), and I don't like how useless the Sangre del Diablo/Drago trees are. Those problems, however, are easily fixable: remove Ballast Tanks from everything but the submarine; edit the book properly (hell, I offer my services for free if they would listen - and let me read their things pre-production (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotate.gif) ); and removing Exotic Weapon Sap, adding Counterspelling, and adding the Compulsion and/or Suggestion Power to the trees fixes them good.

The rest of the gear I have little/no issue over and the revision of things such as Scatter Rules and Suppressive Zones is amazing. It's simply that some of the details are fuzzy or broken.

[Grinder]

A letter writing campaign is a nice idea, but the fact is, companies only listen to the bottom line. Only by refusing to buy War! can we send a message that CGL will be sure to hear. And let's face it, War! ireportedly a slipshod product, not worth our money. Here in this thread, I want to discuss other ways of sending a message, as well as getting t!e word out about boycotiting War!

As per the OP, this thread is not about discussing the content of War! (there are other threads for doing so), but for finding a way to send CGL a message and/ or getting a boycott of the book started.

[Caine Hazen]

Part of the reason you are getting the books you're getting, is people already voted with their dollars (so yes, Cain has a point there) Mostly your dollars basically said," if fluff wasn't mixed with new toys", the book didn't sell the numbers the company liked. Thus, the concept that was introduced with the "core books" was dropped in favor of the current style. So note, you (the fans) have already spoke, and the company listened.

Just remember, just cause you're voting (or abstaining) with your dollars, doesn't mean that the message you send will be the right one.

[KarmaInferno]

Personally, I was always surprised at the move away from Fluff + Crunch books to separate Fluff books and Crunch books.

Historically, Crunch books have ALWAYS outsold Fluff books, often by a wide margin.

From a strictly business point of view, you'd really always want some crunch in a fluff book if you wanted the effort of putting the book out at all to be worth it.



-k

[Draco18s]

So note, you (the fans) have already spoke, and the company listened.

If I'm going to vote I want to make sure what the box I'm checking says.

Voting "money" means that the company interprets it however they want to and not how I meant.

[sabs]

Personally, I was always surprised at the move away from Fluff + Crunch books to separate Fluff books and Crunch books.

Historically, Crunch books have ALWAYS outsold Fluff books, often by a wide margin.

From a strictly business point of view, you'd really always want some crunch in a fluff book if you wanted the effort of putting the book out at all to be worth it.



-k

some of my favorite books:
Black Rigger Hand Book, Shadowrun Companion, Field of Fire. 2 crunch books and 1 fluff book with some delicious crunch.

[Cain]

So, the question is how to get the word out. I'm on two RPG forums, RPG.net and the official Shadowrun Forum. Does anyone know of more? And better ways to get the word out?

[Blade]

Go to your FLGS and tell the manager "Don't buy War! for me. And if you do buy some, don't buy too many. It sucks and probably won't sell well.". But buy him some other books (or dice, or anything) because he has to stay in business.

[hermit]

Does anyone know of more? And better ways to get the word out?

Write reviews on relevant sites.

[Cain]

Go to your FLGS and tell the manager "Don't buy War! for me. And if you do buy some, don't buy too many. It sucks and probably won't sell well.". But buy him some other books (or dice, or anything) because he has to stay in business.

I do that. I live in a small-ish town, there's only so many places that sell RPG books, and I'm one of the largest consumers.

Write reviews on relevant sites.

I do that too. I have several reviews on RPG.net. Do you know of others?

[Blade]

If you want to be taken seriously, don't overdo it and always stay calm and polite.
Looking like a disappointed customer is a thing, looking like a ravid angry fanboy with too much time on his hands who hates Catalyst/Jason Hardy/whoever with passion and seems to have its/his destruction at top priority in his agenda is another.

That's why a lot of people with valid criticism aren't taken seriously anymore.

[hermit]

I do that too. I have several reviews on RPG.net. Do you know of others?

Amazon and others who carry the dead tree book when it hits the market
I wrote a review on battleshop, where I bought the turd.
Paizo.com also has a rpg review space.

[Acme]

If you want to be taken seriously, don't overdo it and always stay calm and polite.

Hmm, hermit, if the second review on BC is truly you, you certainly got the ranting and raving part down.

[Acme]

And I'm DPing to clarify that it wasn't entirely a dig at you, hermit. I in fact apologize for the tone that the PM I sent you a couple weeks ago took, that was over the line and I shouldn't have sent that.

What the post mean was that I just find the review a bit.. over the top. Like Blade says, going overboard on a negative review makes it tough to read objectively. And then of course calling out developers by name specifically is also making it look like you've got an agenda rather than just not liking the product itself. I realize that you sort-of do have an agenda, that the devs have let things go downhill, but is that the sort of thing that belongs in a product review?

[hermit]

What the post mean was that I just find the review a bit.. over the top. Like Blade says, going overboard on a negative review makes it tough to read objectively. And then of course calling out developers by name specifically is also making it look like you've got an agenda rather than just not liking the product itself. I realize that you sort-of do have an agenda, that the devs have let things go downhill, but is that the sort of thing that belongs in a product review?

Maybe not. But maybe you judge any bad review in some way faulty. Sure, it's not a petition for parliament and it doesn't try to be nice, polite and friendly. Because I don't see a point being polite and friendly about a company basically ripping me off and selling me something I'd be embarassed to turn in as a class assignment.

There'Re all kinds of things wrong about this bok. Not only the fact it takes bad taste to new and amazing levels (I agree, that is biased, maybe for someone else, killing dead Jews again for loot and fun is a nice plot idea), but there're also so many technical things wrong about it. with some more distance I might word it slightly less aggravated, but from the content? No, I'm not going to take anything back there.

Also, if the Line Dev screws up so bad, because coordinating submissions into something that fits, plot oversight, weaving plots that make sense, and taking care editing happens, is his job, I don't see why I should sugarcoat anything for him.

[Acme]

Maybe not. But maybe you judge any bad review in some way faulty. Sure, it's not a petition for parliament and it doesn't try to be nice, polite and friendly. Because I don't see a point being polite and friendly about a company basically ripping me off and selling me something I'd be embarassed to turn in as a class assignment.

There'Re all kinds of things wrong about this bok. Not only the fact it takes bad taste to new and amazing levels (I agree, that is biased, maybe for someone else, killing dead Jews again for loot and fun is a nice plot idea), but there're also so many technical things wrong about it. with some more distance I might word it slightly less aggravated, but from the content? No, I'm not going to take anything back there.

Also, if the Line Dev screws up so bad, because coordinating submissions into something that fits, plot oversight, weaving plots that make sense, and taking care editing happens, is his job, I don't see why I should sugarcoat anything for him.

To begin with, no, I don't find bad reviews inherently faulty. Just because I'm trying to be a bit more pragmatic about this specific situation does not mean I'm trying to go "everything is great!"

Yes, you've brought up some good opinions and content, but I'm not saying that your content was bad, just the way you presented it. It was like you were trying to beat someone over the head with the book instead of just saying they shouldn't buy it. In a way, the tactfulness of a review generally isn't supposed to preserve the publisher's feelings, but to actually sell the point you're trying to make to potential customers. Doing things like literally naming the devs instead of just talking about them generally in the last paragraph is one thing, because honestly it sounds like you're trying to be personal, saying that they are bad people, instead of just critiquing the job they're doing.

You're not even listening to the point that Blade made. Hell, I didn't even make it, I only pointed out that the review you posted in your own words was a lot less likely to be taken seriously than the first one you posted from someone else. It honestly looks like you've got an axe to grind with the whole company rather than just the product itself, and that's what a review is supposed to be about, the product.