War, HUH! What the hell's it good for?, Absolutely nothing! Options

[hermit]

Mmmmh, lesbian cousins and catboys ...

[Doc Chase]

Mmmmh, lesbian cousins and catboys ...

This is an acceptable break from the original topic of this thread.

[sabs]

Mmmmh, lesbian cousins and catboys ...

Aint nothing wrong with that.

[Tzeentch]

That's just the retarded idea to put these things somewhere. The entire writing process at CGL seems to be like writing a bad fanfic. Make up some sues ("interesting characters"), then toss in some kewl, edgy and wyld stuffz (Aztlan, Nazis, Nazi magic, killer trees, genocide) and let it write itself. It doesn't work for the umpteenth Sailor Moon X Naruto fanfic, and it won't work here as well.

-- Not to burst any bubbles, but all Shadowrun products have had an element of writer Mary Sues and in-jokes. There are a few in-jokes that only my friends and residents of Sandpoint, ID will probably understand written into my stuff in Threats 2 that are embarassing to look at now. There's a strong desire by the line developers and authors to make their stamp on the setting, fix things they don't like (even if they have to do it by stealth), and advance new viewpoint characters instead of using someone like Fastjack who is getting long in the tooth and has no more depth to explore in shadowtalk. Using big gun shadowtalkers always ran the risk of getting your stuff rewritten because another freelancer with higher seniority/priority used him differently or there was some plan for them (that happened with the Tir Tairngire speakers to some extent and Salish Shidhe in general because of a book that I don't think ever got released). I'm not ready to tar individual authors of War! because I can't be sure that what saw print is even what they wrote (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

-- The fact that Shadowrun has all these fictional ideologies, some of whom are barely disguised versions of real ones (Humanis = KKK, lets not pretend otherwise), actually complicates matters. You may have a background in political science, have a good understanding of, say, human smuggling. But how does that apply to all the wierd organizations Shadowrun has, like Tamanous, and canon that often doesn't make any sense (I still have no idea how world trade functions in Shadowrun and I've been looking at that problem for years), blatantly contradicts itself book to book (or worse, in shadowtalk), and has to incorporate magic, megacorporations, and metaspecies? It's a huge pain in the ass juggling canon even if you eat and breathe the setting, much less if you're just parachuted in to write to spec.

-- I'm willing to give a HUGE amount of latitude on authorial intent, even if I think the implementation is not exactly solid (I strongly disliked the old Virtual Realities 2.0 for example, and pretty much wrote as if Cyberpirates never existed). My main complaint with War! was that, frankly, it didn't have much to do with war at all. It was just a bunch of wacky ideas and some big guns slapped together. Which is fine if it was Conflict Zone: Bogota, but I thought this was going to be the book on Shadowrun warfare and was let down. It also basically guarantees that we won't see a book on Shadowrun warfare until next edition (maybe) because this one sort of fills that slot and has tainted the entire subject with the fanbase.

[Critias]

Quite a bit of the backlash seems to be surprise or confusion over the Bogota focus of the book, but I hope that's something people can learn to accept; in large part because it's the format for several upcoming books. Rather than looking only at warfare, and at the same time publishing a book looking only at Bogota, the new format is to use a sort of expanding image allegory, like you're slowly zooming away from something. First we'll look at Bogota, then at the war in Bogota, then at war elsewhere in the world (global hotspots type chapter), then at war in general in the Sixth World as a whole (expanded rules for war, gear for military groups, etc). This way folks aren't getting just a setting book or just a "theme" book or just a crunch book, but a little of each.

I think it's unfortunate that it seems to have blindsided so many fans, but I hope that in a book that's handled some of the layout and grammatical issues (a much more serious concern, to me), the general format will grow on people. I know that, for instance, looking at Denver->Espionage in Denver->Espionage Elsewhere->Espionage in General is what's already been advertised for Spy Games, and I really hope we don't have half the fan base complaining because we got espionage in their Denver book, and the other half that we got Denver in their espionage book.

It's my hope that it's the content of War! and not the format as a whole they're disliking (I mean, granted, I'd prefer no one disliked anything, don't get me wrong). (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[sabs]

You got Chocolate in my Peanutbutter!

You got PeanutButter on my chocolate!


That being said:

The problem with War.. (other than.. WHY THE *#$*&$& did they pick Bogota as the focal point for war between Amazonia and Aztlan) is .. really too long.

An introduction would have helped.
Bogota doesn't FEEL like a city at war.
Bogota makes no SENSE as the focus point for a Land War in South America. It's 2+ miles above sea level in incredibly mountainous terrain.
Spitting Sap Trees
Where's the war?
CurbStomp Jew Ghosts

The Designator Spell
No pictures for the drones/vehicles
Stupid Damage codes for stuff that didn't need damage code.
No fix for the high end Damage issue.


And Critias I'm not blaming you for any of that (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) it's really not your fault.

Updated info on Denver, as part of the Espionage thing.. can be cool.. if it's done well.
If 1/2 of the War book had been about Caracas, or Maracaibos, that might have made more sense. But.. Bogota? Did someone actually bring up Bogota in Google Maps and turn on the Terrain Features?

Also, can we NOT cut and paste the CIA Travel Guide when we're doing writeups about Cities in 2073? Pretty Please with Sugar on Top.

[Critias]

Well, right. Like I said, that's why I'm hoping that it isn't the format folks are unhappy with. If they've got to not like it, I hope they're not liking it for those reasons (which are perfectly valid, as I've said time and again), and not just the general format of city->hotspots->Sixth World->rules.

[Tzeentch]

This way folks aren't getting just a setting book or just a "theme" book or just a crunch book, but a little of each.

-- I'm supportive of this, I am. I just think that the elements need to reinforce each other a bit more. If War! had been theme: Desert Wars, setting: middle east, crunch: military tech it would have worked better (IMO) for example. Bogota just came out of nowhere, wasn't really a setting element I think people cared about much, and proved to be a useful target dummy for peoples other issues with the line. Not to say that it didn't have issues, but I feel far more strongly about the mechanical crunch problems (as that's my interest area) than the setting as I normally just ignore huge chunks of the Shadowrun world when gaming anyways.

-- The general idea is certainly stronger than the mix that was attempted in Fields of Fire (which is Street Samurai Catalog plus some tacked-on merc stuff).

I think it's unfortunate that it seems to have blindsided so many fans, but I hope that in a book that's handled some of the layout and grammatical issues (a much more serious concern, to me), the general format will grow on people.

-- Eh, I could really care less about this unless it's really egregious.

I know that, for instance, looking at Denver->Espionage in Denver->Espionage Elsewhere->Espionage in General is what's already been advertised for Spy Games, and I really hope we don't have half the fan base complaining because we got espionage in their Denver book, and the other half that we got Denver in their espionage book.

-- Denver has always kind of sucked as a setting, and been a weeping sore in canon since the boxed set. If it blew up in Spy Games along with Ghostwalker I'm sure you would get a few thank you letters (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) My bar is really low for that location already, if that's a consolation (IMG:style_emoticons/default/spin.gif)

It's my hope that it's the content of War! and not the format as a whole they're disliking (I mean, granted, I'd prefer no one disliked anything, don't get me wrong). (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

-- It's been done before to varying success before - Cyberpirates and Shadowbeat, for example. I hope the kinks get worked out! Maybe I'll dust off my Shadowrun Space proposals in that case (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif)

[Critias]

I know for me it was the espionage, not the Denver, that got me flinging in proposals left and right for SG. In the 15,000 words of Spy Games I sent in, the word "Denver" doesn't appear a single time. I'm firmly in the "other hotspots" and "general Sixth World info" camp, even personally, but I see it as a cool book of Shadowrun spy stuff with a free Denver sourcebook update. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

That said, I'm pretty sure no one sent in "Nukes fell, Denver's gone. The end," for their chapter idea. Hmm. That would'a really freed up the word count for more of my stuff, though...

[hermit]

Moreover, can actual RESEARCH in the background happen?

Not to burst any bubbles, but all Shadowrun products have had an element of writer Mary Sues and in-jokes.

The issue is not that there are MS NPC and in-jokes. The issue is that there was no outline, no thread, no discernible focus in War!. the book had no concept, and nothing to say about anything that would be interesting.

We get a book that claims to be about war! and then describes a Bogotá that neither seems at war, and doesn't even mind the real geography of the city. There is no jungle in Bogota. Trees have a maximum altitude where they can grow tall and dense, and Bogota is above that). You see, I'm willing to suspend my disbelief to a degree, but that is like making Los Angeles a mile high city in the Rockies.

First we'll look at Bogota, then at the war in Bogota, then at war elsewhere in the world (global hotspots type chapter), then at war in general in the Sixth World as a whole (expanded rules for war, gear for military groups, etc). This way folks aren't getting just a setting book or just a "theme" book or just a crunch book, but a little of each.

The facts that:
- Bogota doesn't behave like a city in war at all
- Bogota's description makes no sense
- the global war hot spots - except for one that makes no sense - are not about wars, but about shadowruns
- killing Jew Zombies is nothing about War! Neither is a progrom on Gypsies.
- the War in General piece is stuck in parts in Bogotá, shooting your concept in the knee
- no maps
- a shitload of new vehicles and no scenario to use them (the Hot Spots MIGHT have been useful there, but instead, we get to kill Jew Zombies for Nazi treasures)

As is, War!, despite the concept as such maybe feasible (even though it gives every part too little time to shine, dragging everything dow, like how the location books failed to buiild up immersive locations by being too short and hush-hush), falls flat on it's face because the content lacks and it'S disorganised and written more as a file dump of drafts with no discernible mission.

Now, I get that this kind of mixed book might sell better (if only for the gear, I doubt a setting profits if it is described ina s few words as possible). It's something D&D does, and while I strongly dislike that system, it seems to work for them. But unless you fill that book with more than nonsense and weird to insulting content it won't make for a good book.

Well, right. Like I said, that's why I'm hoping that it isn't the format folks are unhappy with. If they've got to not like it, I hope they're not liking it for those reasons (which are perfectly valid, as I've said time and again), and not just the general format of city->hotspots->Sixth World->rules.

Aside from concerns about the setting being cut too short, I'm reasonably fine with that setup. It'S neither better nro weorse than the several-settings-in-one-books, at least (I still prefer one-setting setting books, but these have be of very strong quality to shine, so I agree, it's a bit of a risk to write them and CGL seems to squeeze the franchise for every penny now).

In general, it'S a layout that could work, and has worked in cherished old books.

[KarmaInferno]

It is telling, perhaps, that a large amount of the problems folks complain about the book would vanish if the book had been entitled "Target: Bogota".

Not ALL the complaints, grant you, but a lot.




-k

[hermit]

Some of it. It would still have no maps, be incredibly disorganised and without direction, not interesting, and the Hot Spots would still be the ultimate in Shadowrun written suckage. But yes, at least it wouldn't pretend to tell you about War in Shadowrun, or even just the AzAm war (which it doesn't).

[Nath]

Rather than looking only at warfare, and at the same time publishing a book looking only at Bogota, the new format is to use a sort of expanding image allegory, like you're slowly zooming away from something. First we'll look at Bogota, then at the war in Bogota, then at war elsewhere in the world (global hotspots type chapter), then at war in general in the Sixth World as a whole (expanded rules for war, gear for military groups, etc).

Then I hope that London is not going to be the center of a dozen parallel global conspiracies, World of Darkness style, just because it must introduce the rest of Conspiracy Theories.

[Doc Chase]

Quite a bit of the backlash seems to be surprise or confusion over the Bogota focus of the book, but I hope that's something people can learn to accept; in large part because it's the format for several upcoming books. Rather than looking only at warfare, and at the same time publishing a book looking only at Bogota, the new format is to use a sort of expanding image allegory, like you're slowly zooming away from something. First we'll look at Bogota, then at the war in Bogota, then at war elsewhere in the world (global hotspots type chapter), then at war in general in the Sixth World as a whole (expanded rules for war, gear for military groups, etc). This way folks aren't getting just a setting book or just a "theme" book or just a crunch book, but a little of each.

I think it's unfortunate that it seems to have blindsided so many fans, but I hope that in a book that's handled some of the layout and grammatical issues (a much more serious concern, to me), the general format will grow on people. I know that, for instance, looking at Denver->Espionage in Denver->Espionage Elsewhere->Espionage in General is what's already been advertised for Spy Games, and I really hope we don't have half the fan base complaining because we got espionage in their Denver book, and the other half that we got Denver in their espionage book.

It's my hope that it's the content of War! and not the format as a whole they're disliking (I mean, granted, I'd prefer no one disliked anything, don't get me wrong). (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

I could get that, though as has been said multiple times - your Bogota focus is on the city, and not the war in the city. Or near the city. Or around the world. As I said on the SR4 forums, War! is a book that doesn't know what it wants to be, and makes a much better offering simply as a Bogota sourcebook.

The layout you...lay out isn't a bad one. I like seeing the 'zoom-out' options like that, and I hope to see it better integrated in the future, such as you suggest with Spy Games. It has a nice advantage in fleshing out cities that aren't Seattle, and gives us an idea on what's going on in that region. In pioneering it in War!, in a sense, I hope that the dev teams have seen where the shortcomings are and rectify it for future releases. I'm not incredibly certain that War! can be saved in that sense, as a great deal of the content that people were looking for in a book titled such wasn't there(which makes alt.War a viable process).

[Cain]

It is telling, perhaps, that a large amount of the problems folks complain about the book would vanish if the book had been entitled "Target: Bogota".

Not ALL the complaints, grant you, but a lot.

Nah. In my review of Runner Havens, I pointed out more or less the same thing-- the book should have been called Target: Hong Kong. The difference was, the Hong Kong section was of stellar quality, while Bogota is a jumbled, disorganized mishmash.

[Draco18s]

How about In Your General Direction: Bogota?

[hermit]

Then I hope that London is not going to be the center of a dozen parallel global conspiracies, World of Darkness style, just because it must introduce the rest of Conspiracy Theories.

Taht's very probably exactly what will happen. Sadly, the setup of these books promotes this. Settings in SR get slapped with a hat that way. Denver gets the spy hat, London gets the conspiracy hat (to be fair though, they ended the plot of that setting in a whimper in 6WA, so it's got nothing going, because Americans seem to honestly believe that the second there are elections everything is fine and cakes and kittens).

the book should have been called Target: Hong Kong.

If only they had just focused on HK. The writing was, as you say, stellar. I'd love to see a city book like that!

[Doc Chase]

How about In Your General Direction: Bogota?

Elderberries: Bogota.

[Tzeentch]

Moreover, can actual RESEARCH in the background happen?

-- I'm not entirely clear what you mean. Certainly there is a lot of canon material to dig through, and most of the world has not been addressed for decades of in-game time. I'm not aware of any writers bible or any other good, up-to-date reference work for Shadowrun -- the freelancers (until recently, I gather) have been of the rather fanatical sort and didn't need a developer document to know what had happened in Imago or some shadowtalk in Shadowtech.

The issue is not that there are MS NPC and in-jokes. The issue is that there was no outline, no thread, no discernible focus in War!. the book had no concept, and nothing to say about anything that would be interesting.

-- A legitimate complaint. The book tries to cover a lot of ground and doesn't congeal into anything I found particularly interesting.

[hermit]

-- I'm not entirely clear what you mean. Certainly there is a lot of canon material to dig through, and most of the world has not been addressed for decades of in-game time. I'm not aware of any writers bible or any other good, up-to-date reference work for Shadowrun -- the freelancers (until recently, I gather) have been of the rather fanatical sort and didn't need a developer document to know what had happened in Imago or some shadowtalk in Shadowtech.

No, but for starters, in Bogota, the writer ignored that it's a city that's 2.000 meters above sea level. That's a very basic feature of a city, it's defining. You cannot just ignore that because it's South America, which is the continent with the jungle hat.

Also, yes, they wshould read up on previous canon. It's annoying when they ignore canon as often as CGL has in recent releases. Shadowrun'S selling point is the world, a compelling universe that's more or less congruent. The rules aren'T able to sell on their own. It's like Dark Heresy, which has arguably even worse rules, but is caried by the fact it'S game world is an ancient (inn RPG terms) and beloved scifantasy world.

Shadowrun is not D&D, where you can rape any setting you like as hard as you want and it will still sell.

[tete]

my 2 cents is if you bought it on Drivethru and you don't like it write a review on there. I have passed on buying several pdfs from reading the reviews. These days I always buy the pdf first if its an option.

[Acme]

I always prefer hardcopy to pdfs, it's a lot easier to read. I HATE reading crap on computer screen; even with a fast computer it's slow. I always prefer skimming through a book at the game store, because that's why game stores are there. Most clerks don't care if you're reading it, as long as you're not stealing it or wrecking the thing.

[Wesley Street]

I'm still completely baffled by the lack of maps. Or even a single map. If you write a setting piece for an RPG, you include a map. That's RPG 101.

[Adarael]

I'ma go out on a limb here and say something *totally crazy*...

If it's a location book and doesn't have a map, it isn't an RPG suppliment. This isn't supported by any logic, mind you, just my personal opinion. Cuz even fucking Keep on the Borderlands had a map, yo.

[Omenowl]

I'ma go out on a limb here and say something *totally crazy*...

If it's a location book and doesn't have a map, it isn't an RPG suppliment. This isn't supported by any logic, mind you, just my personal opinion. Cuz even fucking Keep on the Borderlands had a map, yo.

I tend to agree that it should have a map for any location. Else it is just a a generic supplement with no idea of where things are.