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> Spirit Force: how big is too big?
J. Packer
post Jan 10 2011, 11:25 PM
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You're a hermetic mage. Your Magic, Will, Logic and Summoning are all 5. You've got a spirit mentor that grants you +2 on summoning fire spirits, and you've got a force 3 summoning focus for Fire spirits.

How big of a fire spirit to you feel safe summoning?
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Adarael
post Jan 10 2011, 11:31 PM
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6 to 8, depending on how much edge I got, magical backup I can call on to put the spirit down if I screw up, etc. I wouldn't go higher than that, because it stops being a good - or even relatively even - gamble, at that point.
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phlapjack77
post Jan 11 2011, 02:32 AM
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Ok - anything 5 and under, no big deal, for multiple reasons.

6+, you're looking at physical drain, so the only thing that will really matter is how many successes the spirit can get vs. your drain pool.

So, assuming force 9. That's on average 3 hits, or 6P drain. You have 10 dice in your drain pool. So on average, you're taking 3P per summoning. And it could be much worse if the spirit rolls a little better, and you roll a little worse. Def. not safe feeling. Edge cases here can mess you up.

Force 6 spirit, avg 2 successes. So 4P drain, vs your 10 dice. That's a little better, still might be taking some damage but it's not as scary. On the extreme, the spirit could get a 12P drain on you. Kinda scary, but I think the odds of this are very low, vs. your being able to use Edge to resist too.

So as a final answer, I think Force 5 is as safe as you feel, possibly dipping your toe into the Force 6 spirit area just for that extra spirit power it gets.
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Raiki
post Jan 11 2011, 02:40 AM
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Very small numbers being mentioned here.

And yet, somehow, whenever possession mages come up, they seem to be able to throw around force 20 spirits without batting an eye. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotate.gif)


EDIT: For the record, the highest I've ever seen summoned was force 9. We were fighting a squad of Red Samurai and the magician panicked. I'm fairly sure that the drain did more damage to him than any of the sams.

~R~
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Yerameyahu
post Jan 11 2011, 02:41 AM
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The OP provided the parameters. If he were more munchkinned, the numbers would obviously be higher.
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pbangarth
post Jan 11 2011, 02:51 AM
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QUOTE (Raiki @ Jan 10 2011, 09:40 PM) *
Very small numbers being mentioned here.

And yet, somehow, whenever possession mages come up, they seem to be able to throw around force 20 spirits without batting an eye. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotate.gif)


EDIT: For the record, the highest I've ever seen summoned was force 9. We were fighting a squad of Red Samurai and the magician panicked. I'm fairly sure that the drain did more damage to him than any of the sams.

~R~

Well, usually the Force 20 spirit is mentioned by someone afraid of the Possession tradition, and is used as the reason why it should be feared. Repeated attempts to argue that Summoning a Force 20 spirit is suicide don't usually work.

Phlapjack's example is reasonable, but I would like to emphasize that while the 'average' dice rolls are survivable, a career spent summoning spirits above your stun/physical limit will sooner or later kill you.
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Raiki
post Jan 11 2011, 03:02 AM
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::Shrug:: I know. It was really a throwaway comment not made to be taken seriously. I'm just a bit touchy when it comes to possession mages, and I'll be damned if I let something like logic or proper arguing technique keep me from getting in my cheap digs on magical hypocrites. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)


~R~
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phlapjack77
post Jan 11 2011, 03:34 AM
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QUOTE (pbangarth @ Jan 11 2011, 10:51 AM) *
Phlapjack's example is reasonable, but I would like to emphasize that while the 'average' dice rolls are survivable, a career spent summoning spirits above your stun/physical limit will sooner or later kill you.

Yeah, I agree - In the case above, I think Force 6 is only a good idea if you REALLY need an extra spirit power. And summoning Force 6+ all the time would def. be a bad idea.
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CanRay
post Jan 11 2011, 04:58 AM
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Anything bigger than your head. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)
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J. Packer
post Jan 11 2011, 05:09 AM
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QUOTE (CanRay @ Jan 10 2011, 09:58 PM) *
Anything bigger than your head. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

By weight or by volume? Now figure out how to calculate those for a spirit...

So, my gut reaction - that unless your magic is pretty low, oversummoning is generally not a good general course of action. Are there mitigating factors? Would you be more inclined to go a point or two of force higher if you were at home, with the mana lodge and a friend with a Medkit 6 hanging around?
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phlapjack77
post Jan 11 2011, 05:33 AM
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QUOTE (J. Packer @ Jan 11 2011, 01:09 PM) *
So, my gut reaction - that unless your magic is pretty low, oversummoning is generally not a good general course of action. Are there mitigating factors? Would you be more inclined to go a point or two of force higher if you were at home, with the mana lodge and a friend with a Medkit 6 hanging around?

I think one huge factor is the oversummoning/physical drain thing. But it seems the biggest factor is just that high-force spirits have the possibility of causing you massive drain. Napalm wave or whatever, at Force 9, would be a "measly" 9 drain. By comparison, a Force 9 spirit could cause 18 drain. You'd better have a really big drain pool to deal with that. And your drain pool is one of the harder things to get really big.

So the friend with a medkit is good, but I don't think it would make a mage any more inclined to "go a point or two higher". Extreme situations, to my mind, is what makes a mage more inclined.

To me, my feeling is that between force 6 and force 8, there's not THAT much difference in terms of spirit effectiveness. Lots of downsides to try to summon a Force 8 vs. Force 6, not as many upsides. Now, Force 9 gets you another spirit power...in extreme cases, maybe then you make that horrible decision.
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Ramaloke
post Jan 11 2011, 06:37 AM
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Well, lets see:

Magic+Summoning+Boni = 15, 15/3=5 Average hits.
Drain Dice = 10, 10/3 = 3.33 Average hits.

Force 5 Spirit
Resisting Summoning = 5/3 = 1.66 Average Hits, 3.32 Average Drain.

So a force 5 spirit is pretty safe.

Lets see what happens when we go higher.

Force 6 Spirit
Resist Summoning = 6/3 = 2 Average Hits, 4 Average Drain.

Force 7 Spirit
Resist Summoning = 7/3 = 2.33 Average Hits, 4.66 Average Drain.

Force 8 Spirit
Resist Summoning = 8/3 = 2.66 Average Hits, 5.32 Average Drain.

Force 9 Spirit
Resist Summoning = 9/3 = 3 Average Hits, 6 Average Drain.
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V-Origin
post Jan 11 2011, 06:43 AM
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No magician may summon a spirit
whose Force is greater than twice her Magic attribute.

SR 20 Anniversary pg 188

In the case of my force 20 spirits, I summoned them as force 10 spirits and slowly build up their power over time via drain force..

You don't summon spirits in the middle of combat..

You summon spirits before you get into trouble and prepare all the dirty tricks of magichood.. hehhehe...
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Grinder
post Jan 11 2011, 06:48 AM
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QUOTE (J. Packer @ Jan 11 2011, 12:25 AM) *
You're a hermetic mage. Your Magic, Will, Logic and Summoning are all 5. You've got a spirit mentor that grants you +2 on summoning fire spirits, and you've got a force 3 summoning focus for Fire spirits.

How big of a fire spirit to you feel safe summoning?


10. Go for the stars! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)
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Mäx
post Jan 11 2011, 08:09 AM
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QUOTE (pattyhulez @ Jan 11 2011, 08:43 AM) *
No magician may summon a spirit
whose Force is greater than twice her Magic attribute.

SR 20 Anniversary pg 188

In the case of my force 20 spirits, I summoned them as force 10 spirits and slowly build up their power over time via drain force..

You don't summon spirits in the middle of combat..

You summon spirits before you get into trouble and prepare all the dirty tricks of magichood.. hehhehe...

Haven't we told you multiple times that your input is not wanted on topics discussing shadowrun and not your "i just make shit up" game that's loosely based on shadowrun.
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Ramaloke
post Jan 11 2011, 08:11 AM
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Well, most of what he said is true, if you can get a spirit with drain force... which is unlikely.

The problem with his post is that Drain Force has a limit of Starting Force x 1.5. A force 10 spirit with drain force couldn't drain itself higher than 15. This, of course, is more reasonable with a lower Force spirit, a force 6 spirit with drain force could get up to 9.

The problem with such a spirit is that they are usually malignant and hateful and as soon as its services are up it is more likely to turn on you than not.
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phlapjack77
post Jan 11 2011, 08:12 AM
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QUOTE (Grinder @ Jan 11 2011, 02:48 PM) *
10. Go for the stars! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

This spirit goes up to 11, though (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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V-Origin
post Jan 11 2011, 08:57 AM
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QUOTE (Ramaloke @ Jan 11 2011, 07:11 PM) *
Well, most of what he said is true, if you can get a spirit with drain force... which is unlikely.

The problem with his post is that Drain Force has a limit of Starting Force x 1.5. A force 10 spirit with drain force couldn't drain itself higher than 15. This, of course, is more reasonable with a lower Force spirit, a force 6 spirit with drain force could get up to 9.

The problem with such a spirit is that they are usually malignant and hateful and as soon as its services are up it is more likely to turn on you than not.


That is why I used Ally Spirits.

Ally Spirits are reborn with every ritual of change. Thus their initial force rating for draining force purposes increase with every ritual of change.

Enhancing an Ally
At a later time, an initiate may choose to modify an ally
spirit’s formula to grant the ally spirit additional forms, skills,
powers, or spells.
The character may also raise the ally’s Force in
this manner. Modifying the spirit formula requires a new Logic
+ Arcana (desired Force x 5, 1 day) Extended Test or another
metaplanar quest.
After designing or acquiring the modified spirit formula,
investing the spirit with new abilities requires a new binding
ritual—sometimes called a Ritual of Change—
in a magical
lodge with a rating equal to or greater than the Force of the ally.

So you summon up a force 10 ally spirit. He drains force to force 15. You do the ritual of change for the force 15 ally spirit to be reborn as as force 15 spirit.

The force 15 spirit can now drain force up to 22.5 (round down to force 22 for simplicity's sake). He can now drain force to force 33. Do the ritual of change. Repeat the process.

It is by no means an easy process especially at the higher stages where the extended Logic + Arcana test gets really hard. Also, you have to spend money per force point for conjuring materials.

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Ramaloke
post Jan 11 2011, 09:07 AM
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A force 10 Ally Spirit would cost 80 Karma, and Drain Force isn't a power available to Ally Spirits. There are ways to get it, but they require trickery and things your GM wont likely stand for, but there is no legal means by which an ally spirit may start off with drain force, or even have Drain Force as one of its own powers.

All the methods by which you can get an ally spirit to have Drain Force involve either Endowment or a Power Pact, and rely on free spirits which is a GM decision territory and because of that isn't really pertinent to the conversation.

-edit-

Unless maybe your GM lets you use the Twisted Paths, but those require GM permission too as they aren't really player legal options either, and again wouldn't really be pertinent to the discussion. Just because your GM lets you do it doesn't mean anybody else's will.
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Grinder
post Jan 11 2011, 09:15 AM
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QUOTE (Mäx @ Jan 11 2011, 09:09 AM) *
Haven't we told you multiple times that your input is not wanted on topics discussing shadowrun and not your "i just make shit up" game that's loosely based on shadowrun.


Keep it civil, please. His game may have a lot of houserules and don't follow RAI or RAW very much, but that doesn't mean his participation on any discussion is unwanted. As long as everyone stays polite and discusses rather then yelling out his opinion, all is fine.
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Stahlseele
post Jan 11 2011, 09:20 AM
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important safety tip: don't summon anything bigger than your head
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V-Origin
post Jan 11 2011, 09:22 AM
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QUOTE (Ramaloke @ Jan 11 2011, 07:07 PM) *
A force 10 Ally Spirit would cost 80 Karma, and Drain Force isn't a power available to Ally Spirits. There are ways to get it, but they require trickery and things your GM wont likely stand for, but there is no legal means by which an ally spirit may start off with drain force, or even have Drain Force as one of its own powers.

All the methods by which you can get an ally spirit to have Drain Force involve either Endowment or a Power Pact, and rely on free spirits which is a GM decision territory and because of that isn't really pertinent to the conversation.

-edit-

Unless maybe your GM lets you use the Twisted Paths, but those require GM permission too, and again wouldn't really be pertinent to the discussion. Just because your GM lets you do it doesn't mean anybody else's will.


dear ramaloke, i have never suggested that everyone must follow our interpretations of the rules.. that would be infringing on other people's games and their right to play the game as they wished..
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Ramaloke
post Jan 11 2011, 09:26 AM
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Im not saying you did, but I do find it less than useful when somebody posts advice in a thread using their own houserules/game as a basis. For example:

Bob asks Forum which is better Dagger or Sword.

Jimmy says "Dagger is better because it does more damage."

Jack says "What are you talking about daggers do less damage than swords, look at the table of book x."

Jimmy says "Oh, our group allows daggers to be like lightsabers and they can cut through anything."

Jack says "Umm what?"

All I'm saying is that when you post in threads you should try to keep houserules and special circumstances only applicable to your games out of the equations, because Bob isn't asking what would be best in your (good, enjoyable and fun, but likely modified) game, hes asking for advice based on the RAW Legal rules without modifications.
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V-Origin
post Jan 11 2011, 10:29 AM
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QUOTE (Ramaloke @ Jan 11 2011, 08:26 PM) *
Im not saying you did, but I do find it less than useful when somebody posts advice in a thread using their own houserules/game as a basis. For example:

Bob asks Forum which is better Dagger or Sword.

Jimmy says "Dagger is better because it does more damage."

Jack says "What are you talking about daggers do less damage than swords, look at the table of book x."

Jimmy says "Oh, our group allows daggers to be like lightsabers and they can cut through anything."

Jack says "Umm what?"

All I'm saying is that when you post in threads you should try to keep houserules and special circumstances only applicable to your games out of the equations, because Bob isn't asking what would be best in your (good, enjoyable and fun, but likely modified) game, hes asking for advice based on the RAW Legal rules without modifications.


And that is what I am offering. A lightsaber is indeed better than a sword but I am not forcing the OP to take my advice, am I?
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Grinder
post Jan 11 2011, 10:36 AM
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QUOTE (Ramaloke @ Jan 11 2011, 10:26 AM) *
All I'm saying is that when you post in threads you should try to keep houserules and special circumstances only applicable to your games out of the equations, because Bob isn't asking what would be best in your (good, enjoyable and fun, but likely modified) game, hes asking for advice based on the RAW Legal rules without modifications.


Don't turn down anyone who wants to share his houserules. As long as it is made clear that the poster is talking about a houserule (and is able to withstand the enemy fire (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif) ) all is fine. On a board that has seen page-long threads over RAW that contradcit Common Sense how can we come down on someone who presents his houserules?
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