Arcane Arrester Options

[Seth]

The character—and she alone—treats Force-based effects (damage, paralysis, etc.) at half (round down) actual strength. Note that the actual Force of the spell is not actually reduced. For instance, a character with Arcane Arrester targeted by a Force 5 spell would resist it as if it were a Force 2 spell, though the spellcaster could still add hits to improve the effect

I have a character with this power (I made a gnome for the looks small and helpless advantage), and I don't really understand how it works.

Here are a couple of corner cases:

A bad guy mage casts a force 6 direct spell at me with 5 success. Normally I would take 11 damage. As the arcane arrester do I take 6 or 8? If the spell was actually a force 3 spell, the hits would be capped to 3: meaning I would take 6 damage. However in this case I think the spell has been cast, so prehaps the 5 successes add to the force of 3... meaning 8 damage

The same argument applies to buff spells or healing spells: does the reduction in the force of the spell cap the nett hits.

My opinion is that the nett hits are capped at the force of the cast spell, and that arcane arrestor impacts only a very few spells (damage and those in which the force has to be more than one of your attributes).

[tagz]

You'd take 8.

Take the first line:

"The character—and she alone—treats Force-based effects (damage, paralysis, etc.) at half (round down) actual strength."

Adding hits is not done on any part of your test, it is the spellcaster's test and the spellcaster still treats the spell as it's original force. That means the effect you are hit with can have more hits then the Force (that the target gets hit with, "Note that the actual Force of the spell is not actually reduced.").

And yes, this does reduce it's effectiveness in some areas. Course your table is free to house rule it the other way around, but this is the RAW.

[Seth]

Thanks.

[InfinityzeN]

Not direct to the question, but if you really want to be pretty spell proof combine Arcane Arrester with Astral Hazing. Depending on the order the GM applies them, it will take ether a force 6 (Hazing, then Arrester) or 10 (Arrester, then Hazing) to even effect you with a spell. I believe RAI would be Hazing, then Arrester since the Hazing has an area effect. Hazing will also actually reduce the force of spells cast into it by 4 which has the nice effect of lowering to cap on successes.

[toturi]

"The character—and she alone—treats Force-based effects (damage, paralysis, etc.) at half (round down) actual strength."

Adding hits is not done on any part of your test, it is the spellcaster's test and the spellcaster still treats the spell as it's original force. That means the effect you are hit with can have more hits then the Force (that the target gets hit with, "Note that the actual Force of the spell is not actually reduced.").

And yes, this does reduce it's effectiveness in some areas. Course your table is free to house rule it the other way around, but this is the RAW.

I am not certain that this is the RAW.

Adding hits is still a Force-based effect, it doesn't matter whose test it is part of, the character still treats it at half actual strength. So while the spellcaster has 5 hits and can apply 5 hits to his spell; for the character with Arcane Arrester, the spell hits him at half with hits limited to that force. If instead of a single target spell the spellcaster casts an AOE spell, the spellcaster still has his 5 hits to apply to everyone else.

I think this is the RAW but you are free to house rule it the other way.

[InfinityzeN]

toturi, you missed what I said. Astral Hazing (not Arcane Arrester) will reduce the actual force of the spell by 4.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

toturi, you missed what I said. Astral Hazing (not Arcane Arrester) will reduce the actual force of the spell by 4.

Toturi was actually replying to Tagz...

[InfinityzeN]

Brain fart... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/embarrassed.gif)

[tagz]

I am not certain that this is the RAW.

Adding hits is still a Force-based effect, it doesn't matter whose test it is part of, the character still treats it at half actual strength. So while the spellcaster has 5 hits and can apply 5 hits to his spell; for the character with Arcane Arrester, the spell hits him at half with hits limited to that force. If instead of a single target spell the spellcaster casts an AOE spell, the spellcaster still has his 5 hits to apply to everyone else.

I think this is the RAW but you are free to house rule it the other way.

Yeah, the interpretation on this one can go either way easily.

Personally I like yours better but I'm holding out because of a very compelling argument for hits not being adjusted and I can't seem to remember exactly what it was. I'll likely change my stance if I can't recall it, but for some reason I just can't shake the feeling like I was proven wrong when I took up the opposite side of this debate.

[Thanee]

Adding hits is still a Force-based effect, it doesn't matter whose test it is part of, the character still treats it at half actual strength. So while the spellcaster has 5 hits and can apply 5 hits to his spell; for the character with Arcane Arrester, the spell hits him at half with hits limited to that force.

That is not correct.

"A spell’s Force limits the number of hits (not net hits) that can be achieved on the Spellcasting Test."

It is completely irrelevant, what part of the spell's Force affects the target. There is only one Spellcasting Test, and it is made at the spell's original Force. Only that number can restrict the number of hits.

Arcane Arrester only modifies the spell's effect, that is based on Force, in relation to the target. It even says specifically, that the spell's actual Force is not altered. It cannot change the result of the Spellcasting Test at all.

Besides, adding hits is certainly not a Force-based effect. It is not an effect of the spell at all. It's the result of the Spellcasting Test (and there is only one such result for one such test).

"...though the spellcaster could still add hits to improve the effect."

Hits improve the effect, they are not an effect (or part of it).

You are reading way too much into that.

It is exactly as tagz said.

Bye
Thanee

[Yerameyahu]

Meh, either way is fine. The real rationale is this: Arcane Arrester is already stupid-strong, so choose the less powerful of the two options. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[toturi]

@ Thanee: Thank you. I will look into that line of reasoning. It looks solid, however.

[Manunancy]

Not direct to the question, but if you really want to be pretty spell proof combine Arcane Arrester with Astral Hazing. Depending on the order the GM applies them, it will take ether a force 6 (Hazing, then Arrester) or 10 (Arrester, then Hazing) to even effect you with a spell. I believe RAI would be Hazing, then Arrester since the Hazing has an area effect. Hazing will also actually reduce the force of spells cast into it by 4 which has the nice effect of lowering to cap on successes.

Astral hazing will also make the character a complete pain in the basckside for any Awakened he's running with. First your aura will be very distinctive and probably raise red flags fro any security mage or spirit who sees it. Second if you stay in the same location for any length of time with them, they will suffer hard. Should some non-magic threat come knocking on the door, they'll be seriously weakened. And probably worried about the effect a long term association with you is going to have on their magic.

Other problems can include tainting the magic mc guffin you wre paid to steal, ruining deals with magic-oriented factions and the like.

Basicaly it is a bit a way of telling the GM and the others players 'no magic in the game thank you'. It's defnitively not a party-oriented disadvantage.

[Muspellsheimr]

Rules as Written

The quality is ambiguous on if the original Force, or if the reduced Force, is used as the limit to the caster's spellcasting Hits. Either way is technically correct.


Rules as Intended

Developer input suggests using the modified (reduced) Force for determining the maximum number of spellcasting Hits in regards to the character with Arrester.



I strongly suggest using the reduced Force for limiting Hits for a number of reasons, the two most notable being that without it, the quality is extremely overcosted, and that without it a huge number of spells are essentially unaffected by the quality.

[toturi]

Astral hazing will also make the character a complete pain in the basckside for any Awakened he's running with. First your aura will be very distinctive and probably raise red flags fro any security mage or spirit who sees it. Second if you stay in the same location for any length of time with them, they will suffer hard. Should some non-magic threat come knocking on the door, they'll be seriously weakened. And probably worried about the effect a long term association with you is going to have on their magic.

Other problems can include tainting the magic mc guffin you wre paid to steal, ruining deals with magic-oriented factions and the like.

Basicaly it is a bit a way of telling the GM and the others players 'no magic in the game thank you'. It's defnitively not a party-oriented disadvantage.

Can you give me a quote on that? The astral space around that character would be very disruptive, but I am not certain that the character's aura would be distinctive in any way.

Remember the character with the Astral Hazing will "always stand at the heart of a Rating 4 Background Count". My players have found ways to make it work for them (quite a few times in fact during the events of Ghost Cartel and DOTA).

[Manunancy]

Can you give me a quote on that? The astral space around that character would be very disruptive, but I am not certain that the character's aura would be distinctive in any way.

Remember the character with the Astral Hazing will "always stand at the heart of a Rating 4 Background Count". My players have found ways to make it work for them (quite a few times in fact during the events of Ghost Cartel and DOTA).

Here's the quote from 'Runner companion' : A character with this quality has expressed metagenes that
somehow catalyse and feed on the character’s darker emotions and negative feelings, disturbing the character’s aura and any ambient mana in her vicinity.

Sounds rather clear to me that the character's aura looks at least as bad as the tain he's leaving behind.

[Dahrken]

A character with this quality has expressed metagenes that somehow catalyse and feed on the character’s darker emotions and negative feelings, disturbing the character’s aura and any ambient mana in her vicinity.

[edit]ninja'ed on the quote ![/]
So I'd say yes, it shows in your aura, if your character being straight in the center of a cloud of astral perturbations that clings to him is not enough to raise a few eyebrows.

An Assensing roll and maybe some magical Knowledge still would probably be required to understand exactly what's going on, but not to feel that there is something rather unusual and bad going on.

[toturi]

Here's the quote from 'Runner companion' : A character with this quality has expressed metagenes that
somehow catalyse and feed on the character’s darker emotions and negative feelings, disturbing the character’s aura and any ambient mana in her vicinity.

Sounds rather clear to me that the character's aura looks at least as bad as the tain he's leaving behind.

I know about the disturbed aura, but where is the "very distinctive" aura in your initial quote?

So I'd say yes, it shows in your aura, if your character being straight in the center of a cloud of astral perturbations that clings to him is not enough to raise a few eyebrows.

An Assensing roll and maybe some magical Knowledge still would probably be required to understand exactly what's going on, but not to feel that there is something rather unusual and bad going on.

How does the astrally perceiving character know that the cloud of astral perturbations is clinging to that particular character or that the character is straight in the center of that cloud? We know that the character has Astral Hazing, but how does someone astral perceiving know that? Especially if the character is in a crowd or a large number of people? Simple Astral Perception actually does not give much information (p191 SR4A) and the Background Count affects Assensing.

[Dahrken]

The cloud may be 2xEssence meters in diameter, but it moves with the character. Unless he's in a crowd it's not that hard to pick out someone who moves like the disturbed area, is close to the center of it and has an aura disturbed by similar negative emotions and feelings.

Also compare the 4 background count of the haze with a few other references in term of background count intensity :
- a fresh murder scene : 1
- the worst slums of Lagos soaked in generation of despair and violence, plus decades of pollution - they makes Glow City look like a decent place) : 3
- the theater of an historical battle, with lots of dead and relatively frequent commemorations (think Omaha Beach or Gettysburg) : 4
- the relocation camp in Abilene, the extermination camps of WWII, Ground zero in Hiroshima : 6

It's really, really bad, worse than the archetypal blood sacrifice by a mad mage, the kind of thing you feel in a torture room or on the scene of a mass murder, likely to hit an assensing mage like a kick in the nuts. But generated by a single person...

In term of Background count intensity and extension of the affected area if you stay in a place, Astral Hazing is as bad as a cyberzombie !

[toturi]

The cloud may be 2xEssence meters in diameter, but it moves with the character. Unless he's in a crowd it's not that hard to pick out someone who moves like the disturbed area, is close to the center of it and has an aura disturbed by similar negative emotions and feelings.

It's really, really bad, worse than the archetypal blood sacrifice by a mad mage, the kind of thing you feel in a torture room or on the scene of a mass murder, likely to hit an assensing mage like a kick in the nuts. But generated by a single person...

In term of Background count intensity and extension of the affected area if you stay in a place, Astral Hazing is as bad as a cyberzombie !

We know that it moves with the character. But to another character simply Astral Perceiving, how would he link the Background Count to that character? What would be immediately noticeable to a person using Astral Perception but is not Assensing? You need to Assense the Background Count, the person's aura and make the connection.

Sure we know that it is generated by a single person, but the characters do not necessarily know that.

[Yerameyahu]

They would probably figure it out relatively quickly, though.

[toturi]

They would probably figure it out relatively quickly, though.

Perhaps, if they are skilled enough. Someone with average skill and attribute may not be able to do so.

[Yerameyahu]

I mean, someone with average skill and attribute can't see across the street. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) Anyway, as long as it catches up with the munchkin eventually, that's fine. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Omenowl]

6/2 equals 3 force for the effect. The hits add 1 damage per. So effect is 3 + 5 hits for 8 damage.

[Omenowl]

Rules as Written

The quality is ambiguous on if the original Force, or if the reduced Force, is used as the limit to the caster's spellcasting Hits. Either way is technically correct.


Rules as Intended

Developer input suggests using the modified (reduced) Force for determining the maximum number of spellcasting Hits in regards to the character with Arrester.



I strongly suggest using the reduced Force for limiting Hits for a number of reasons, the two most notable being that without it, the quality is extremely overcosted, and that without it a huge number of spells are essentially unaffected by the quality.

And how is this overcosted compared to magic resistance?