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> If you caught the Krieger Strain of HMHVV,, how would you cope?
How would you cope?
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Austere Emancipa...
post Mar 18 2004, 12:38 PM
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Assume you're a mundane human, if necessary, and of the same approximate social status in the year 2063 as you are now. Also assume that you actually become a ghoul with 3 or more successes on the Third Stage Infection test.

Suicide/fall into catatonia/etc includes any conscious or sub-conscious choice which would put you out of the living-business quickly and for good. Could also be called "not coping".

Shutting down your mind means exactly that, simply being incapable of any coherent thought. Also includes any extremely severe, but not completely disabling, psychological disorder.

Procuring flesh violently basically means killing people and eating them -- hunting down street junkies for example. Procuring flesh non-violently means eating corpses in the death of which you did not assist -- stealing them from morgues or something.

Becoming an Evil Monster basically means you permanently "switch alignment to Evil", ie you are thereafter mostly interested in causing anyone and everyone as much pain and suffering as possible. This doesn't mean amoral, but totally immoral -- doing everything which the metahuman society does not morally approve of.

Staying (relatively) sane is just that. It might include changing some of your moral views, or getting rid of them ("partial amorality"), but you would retain capability for coherent thought, perhaps some sense of empathy, and a sense of ethics that at least partially matches that of the general metahuman society and the pre-ghoul you.
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Xirces
post Mar 18 2004, 12:54 PM
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If given the choice then surely everyone would pick the last option, wouldn't they..?

<takes a panicky look at fellow DSers>
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Austere Emancipa...
post Mar 18 2004, 12:57 PM
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This is not about having a choice, but about what you think would happen to you. Think about your own behavioral patterns and ask yourself: What is most likely to happen to me under these circumstances?

This post has been edited by Austere Emancipator: Mar 18 2004, 12:57 PM
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simonw2000
post Mar 18 2004, 01:02 PM
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Make friends with a street doc REAL QUICK!
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Traks
post Mar 18 2004, 01:10 PM
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People tend to think about themselves better then they deserve.
So most will choose last option.

Just for fun I chose different :P
Aferomentioned street junkies - imagine, that you eat them and they do not kill next victim for 10 bucks and old watch.
So in some sense such predators would clean up sick society.

I know, it's just different codex and should be put in last answerbut people do not like much self-appointed judges.
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DV8
post Mar 18 2004, 01:31 PM
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This poll is such a load of shit is laughable. This goes beyond anyone's capability to imagine it, and you're expecting realistic results? Hah. Pure conjecture, all of it.
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Austere Emancipa...
post Mar 18 2004, 01:51 PM
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Who said I'm expecting "realistic results"? There are no such thing as ghouls or HMHVV, how could it be realistic?

However, if most people believe that they would stay relatively sane, then it's a good bet they don't believe all ghouls are Evil Monsters. Indeed, if most people believe in their capability to retain some moral standards through ghoul-hood, then it makes sense that a large number of ghouls in SR have managed the same. It means people agree on the relation of how being infected with Krieger HMHVV, and subsequently turning into a ghoul, works and how ghouls are generally described in SR.

And there's a slight difference between "a load of shit" and "pure conjecture". Since this is hardly science, I don't take "conjecture" as an insult. Calling it a load of shit, I might.
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Lilt
post Mar 18 2004, 01:54 PM
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DV8: Roleplaying is all about imagining strange new situations. Should we stop roleplaying simply because it's too hard to imagine our character's responce to catching the Keriger strain of HMHVV?
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broho_pcp
post Mar 18 2004, 01:59 PM
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QUOTE (DV8)
This poll is such a load of shit is laughable. This goes beyond anyone's capability to imagine it, and you're expecting realistic results? Hah. Pure conjecture, all of it.

You would be amazed at what people can imagine, and some people can actually see things in their heads :)

As for the question, I don't see why one specific craving (flesh) would change my morals or ethics. I may have times of weakeness when I loose control and attack someone, but normally I would probably attempt to find some sort of alternative to killing.
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DV8
post Mar 18 2004, 02:35 PM
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QUOTE (Lilt)
DV8: Roleplaying is all about imagining strange new situations. Should we stop roleplaying simply because it's too hard to imagine our character's responce to catching the Keriger strain of HMHVV?

No, but you should stop trying to find a consensus where there is none and won't be any. This board seems to ping-pong between "what's the highest initiative" threads and "what would you do if..." threads, and it seems unable to rise above that. While the former is entertaining once or twice, and the latter is ultimately frustrating because of so many differing opinions, it gets old really quickly.

What would you do if you were a Ghoul? You mean, what would you do if your character's a Ghoul, and you'd have to act him or her out? Doesn't that depend on your game? Doesn't that depend on your GM? Doesn't that depend on the Buffy the Vampire saturation that you allow in your game?

And the answers you can pick in this poll are so incredibly clinical and scientific; "shut down your mind, become an animal." Seriously. If, at one point or another, you are turned from a meta-human into a Ghoul, your physiology, your psychology and your desires changed from what you were before, to what you are then, nobody "makes a decision." You crave human flesh, and will be overcome by ravenous hunger if you don't feed. There's no such thing as a cognition at that point. I say your psyche will be altered in due course, just like people who have been exposed to prolongued violence will have their psyche altered. Do you think they make a choice? That's it's a conscious decision? That there's a moment of clarity in which Serbian soldier "decides" to fill a mass grave with bodies? Puh-lease. Cognition has nothing to do with it.

So the question on the poll should read: "What type of game are you playing?" Which isn't so much fun because there have been a trillion of those over the years and a clear consensus has _never_ been reached.

That was why you opened this poll, wasn't it Austere? Because we disagreed on the nature of a Ghoul in another thread. Did you think that by gathering the votes of others you could show you how "wrong" I was in thinking that Ghouls should have a violent nature? Did you think you would convince me that HMHVV was in actual fact, dispite of what I was saying, a really cool concept within the Shadowrun universe?
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Austere Emancipa...
post Mar 18 2004, 03:11 PM
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QUOTE (DV8)
You mean, what would you do if your character's a Ghoul, and you'd have to act him or her out?

No, how do you think you, the actual you, would act if you became infected with HMHVV? How would you play a character who becomes a ghoul, if that character was exactly like you thrusted into the year 2063 in the Shadowrun world? And, quite importantly, an interpretation/version of the Shadowrun world that pleases you the most.

QUOTE (DV8)
nobody "makes a decision."
That's why I said:
QUOTE (Austere Emancipator)
This is not about having a choice, but about what you think would happen to you. Think about your own behavioral patterns and ask yourself: What is most likely to happen to me under these circumstances?


QUOTE (DV8)
You crave human flesh, and will be overcome by ravenous hunger if you don't feed. There's no such thing as a cognition at that point.

At the "ravenous hunger" point, right? Because humans crave water, and will go to pretty extreme lengths to get something to drink if they can't get any for a while. Suppose it wasn't water, but animal flesh (quite a leap, eh?). And then suppose human flesh instead of animal.

[Edit]Does it say somewhere that, if they do not get the required flesh, they become any more hungry than a starved human? I couldn't find a mention, but I only looked at the Dietary Requirement Weakness and the Ghoul description in SRComp.[/Edit]

QUOTE (DV8)
That there's a moment of clarity in which Serbian soldier "decides" to fill a mass grave with bodies? Puh-lease. Cognition has nothing to do with it.

That's just fine and dandy if you believe in no such thing as human choice, if you think causality will make you do certain things at certain times and you haven't got anything to say in it, really.

A Serbian soldier is given an order to round up a dozen civilians from a village. He chooses to do so, because it doesn't seem that bad at this point, and he doesn't want to disobey a direct order. He's then ordered to shoot them all, one by one.

And he starts to think, as fast as he can in a that state, weighing his sense of duty and loyalty to the Serbian military and his commanders as well as his strong dislike for the people in this vilalge, against the horrors of killing an unarmed civilian in cold blood. His mind races with what if this and what if that. Will he be shot if he doesn't? If he shoots quickly and doesn't think about it, maybe it doesn't feel so bad? Can he ever sleep well at night afterwards? Will he be around to sleep if he doesn't? And he makes a choice.

I'm sure some refused. I'm sure many of the people who did shoot aren't Evil Monsters who are incapable of any sort of coherent thought.

QUOTE (DV8)
What type of game are you playing?

But that's clearly not the question I am asking. The way the Krieger Strain of HMHVV is described in your game, and how you yourself view the effects it has on the (meta)human psyche certainly weigh heavily on this, but that's part of the point.

I am not trying to reach any consensus. I am, among other things, finding out how Dumpshockers feel about Krieger HMHVV (and possible all HMHVV), and how are ghouls described in shadowrun games in general or on average. I certainly do not ask you to agree. If I wanted you to agree, I wouldn't've given you any other options. :P

QUOTE (DV8)
That was why you opened this poll, wasn't it Austere? Because we disagreed on the nature of a Ghoul in another thread.

If I was an Evil Monster, I would have. I'm not, though. I made the choice of opening this poll, because I wanted to find out the things mentioned above. I might have been slightly disappointed if everyone had thought ghoul-hood = Evil Monster, but I wouldn't have pressed the point. Like I said, if you want to believe in inherent Good and Evil, and fate over choice, and whatever else, you are completely free to do so and I will never tell you that's wrong.

QUOTE (DV8)
Did you think that by gathering the votes of others you could show you how "wrong" I was in thinking that Ghouls should have a violent nature?

No. I'm sorry you feel I'd be pathetic.

QUOTE (DV8)
Did you think you would convince me that HMHVV was in actual fact, dispite of what I was saying, a really cool concept within the Shadowrun universe?

Hell no, and this poll has absolutely nothing to do with whether HMHVV is "cool" or not.
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Lilt
post Mar 18 2004, 03:27 PM
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DV8: My example was supposed to be a rhetorical question. IE: Would you give-up roleplaying if you found something hard to play?

We are talking about characters with 3 successes on the 3rd stage infection test. They have almost all of their personality and intillect intact. I agree that there will be major psycological and physiological impacts from the change, but that does not imply that they have no choice in how they act.

Even with zero successes, with mental abilities reduced to just above animalistic levels, there is nothing to say that the character must become a heartless killing machine. Animals are still subject to difference. IE: Some dogs bite, some dogs don't. Caring/Mothering/ETC are all present in animals, and sometimes not present in humans. If animals are capible of such acts, then it is a tennuous statement that someone with superior mental abilities would not be.

Yes, you crave raw meat/human flesh. People crave water and food all the time though. In the past/present/future people have/do/will continue to kill for water and food. Does this make the people who do it merely animals?

[edit] And AE beat me to the post [/edit]
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Cray74
post Mar 18 2004, 03:36 PM
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QUOTE (DV8)
This poll is such a load of shit is laughable. This goes beyond anyone's capability to imagine it, and you're expecting realistic results? Hah. Pure conjecture, all of it.

Pure conjecture? Yeah, because it's roleplaying, make believe, etc. Rule books provide some guidelines to Ghouling, then I and other participants get to extrapolate the reactions of the character based on us. The results probably aren't statistically rigorous, but it's still fun to ponder.

And so far I've had no trouble imagining it. Shadowrun gives an adequate baseline to start imagining a ghoul character's behavior.
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Niallan Zheng
post Mar 18 2004, 03:40 PM
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I think I would procure flesh violently-I'm not much for self-control, and procuring flesh non-violently is a bit difficult. If I managed to retain a conscience, however-which I hope I would-I'd also use my need for flesh as an excuse to clean out some of the gutterslime in my local area; geek some humanis policlub drek or something like that.
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Raptor1033
post Mar 18 2004, 03:46 PM
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face it, we've all got the kernel of evil in us. imagine being stripped of your life and outcast as an animal, if i kept my sanity i'd probably start lashing out. often, violently, and thoroughly enjoying it. you've become something else entirely, why not enjoy it?
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Backgammon
post Mar 18 2004, 04:09 PM
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One of my characters once turned into a ghoul. I roleplayed my new life for a game or two. Getting meat from where I wouldn't draw attention. Raiding an old people home, lurking in back alleys. I literaly became slightly nauseous at what I was doing, what I had to do just to survive. Needless, to say, I said my character shot himself and stopped playing that character.

So although IRL I don't think I'm capable of killing myself, I would probably cope by shutting down most of my humanity, or going nuts. Either, not very good.
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Kagetenshi
post Mar 18 2004, 07:01 PM
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QUOTE (DV8)
This poll is such a load of shit is laughable. This goes beyond anyone's capability to imagine it, and you're expecting realistic results? Hah. Pure conjecture, all of it.

I'm willing to bet that having an intelligence of 9 is also beyond the ability of most dumpshockers to imagine.

~J
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krishcane
post Mar 18 2004, 07:31 PM
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This is an amusing poll to me because I'm a vegetarian. Because of that, most people are "ghouls" to me. (Contentious vegetarian statement alert! Flame away!) I've learned to live with watching people not just eat hamburgers, but stuff like deep-fried goat's head in Mexico. Bleh.

And, I've only been a vegetarian a few years. I used to engage in that same ghoulish behavior, eating the flesh of the thinking and feeling beings. When it's normal or necessary for you, you don't think twice about it. It's just the way it is.

I imagine ghouls would relate to their human-eating the same way most people relate to their animal-eating:

1.) You just don't think about where the meat came from. You make it a point to eat processed meats, or at least get your organs already seperated from the donor, so you never have to look into the eyes of the deceased.

2.) You do think about it, and you assert your right to eat those beings because of your capability to do so. You imagine the food chain, imagine yourself on top of it, and know that you are superior because you can eat those beings.

3.) You sometimes think about it, and you feel kinda bad if you think about it too much, but darn it, those people are just so tasty! Especially in the right sauce! You avoid meats that were made with excessive pain or suffering (whatever you define as excessive) but basically you just focus on the pleasure of a good meal. If you need to prepare the meat, you just look at it impartially, as a task to be completed on the way to a good sense experience. Mmm! Dinner is served!

--K

Added thought: Based on my conversations with animal-eaters, I could easily imagine some ghouls feeling that God has given them the right to eat people, by putting them in this situation. They could actually feel like superior beings because they have been divinely appointed to the next layer in the food chain, the layer that eats the humans (the formerly superior species).
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John Campbell
post Mar 18 2004, 10:46 PM
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Having met cows, I have difficulty conceiving of them as "thinking beings".
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Kagetenshi
post Mar 18 2004, 11:13 PM
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Having met some people, I have the same difficulty.

~J
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BitBasher
post Mar 19 2004, 12:29 AM
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QUOTE
Because of that, most people are "ghouls" to me.
HOLY CRAP! You know people that eat human flesh??!? because if you don't then they're just omnivores. :D

Incidentally I have never had moral qualms about looking into the eyes of somehting then eating it later. I've eaten deer and rabbit I had a hand in killing. If i'm going to kill it I am at least going to eat it. If we were meant to not eat meat our physiology would be quite different.

Omnivores represent! <thump thump>
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krishcane
post Mar 19 2004, 01:51 AM
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Without getting into vegetarian politics (because I really don't care what other people eat -- make yourself happy), BitBasher's phrasing could be adapted in a really fun and chilling way to a ghoul. It might sound like, "If we were meant to not eat metahuman meat our physiology would be quite different. We the ghouls are obviously meant to be this way. It's evolution, baby. Pass the A-1." :)

For some reason, I've been grooving all day on the idea of a ghoul-supremecist culture based on this idea. I think that'd made a great campaign concept. Maybe all predators of metahumanity could get together in a kind of "undead" brotherhood of the Infected, as the next step forward for intelligent life on Earth...

Anyway, on the original topic, of how people would adapt to eaten human flesh, in my experience people find it easy enough to adapt their point of view to justify their needs. I expect most ghouls would find a rationale for why it's correct for them to eat metahuman flesh. Those examples I gave of why people eat animals are just some of the possible ways of looking at it, that a ghoul might adopt. The survival instinct is very likely to encourage a mindset that supports doing what they have to do.

To Kagetenshi's comment, perhaps a ghoul would decide that he only eats stupid people, or the tragically un-hip.

--K
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Herald of Verjig...
post Mar 19 2004, 02:02 AM
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Vampires are self-supremecist, why wouldn't ghouls be as well? Ignoring those ghouls who are only fit to serve as moving targets at least. The only real difference is that vampires have cooler innate powers than ghouls, but both would see humans as cattle.

On a related question: How often do you think a few ghouls will team up with a vampire and split the food? Vampire eats the essense, ghouls eat the physical.
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Dax
post Mar 19 2004, 03:58 AM
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Once again. Not all vampires are self-supremist. Not all Ghouls are monsters. I am getting so sick of this "all one way, or the other" mode of thinking. Why can't they have some variation just like normal humans? Not everyone is a Charles Manson or a Ted Bundy for crying out loud.
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Herald of Verjig...
post Mar 19 2004, 04:03 AM
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Dax, I'm talking to a daisy eater. Don't mistake that for a serious discussion of psychology.
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