Deus created Otaku? Options

[PoliteMan]

Was reading Threats 2 a few days ago and came across something odd in the part about the Network (Deus' human network which reconstructed him after the Arcology meltdown). One section mentioned that they were all Deus' created Otaku, which was odd because they all also had special cyberware in them. I can't check my books right now but was Deus able to make Otaku?

[MK Ultra]

Yes, but they where only viable in the Renraku SCIRE Arcology Network, unabled to use their abilities in the rest of the matrix. They made up the bulk of his whites, IIRC. Althought the elite whites where real Otaku that followed DEUS.

AFAIK, the only other artificial Otaku created in canon was Ronin in the Technobabel novel, though that might have been the Deep Resonance, so maybe he just was a latent Otaku with late emergance. I think he was already past twenty and he even kept his abilities without fading, or it was at least delayed, I think - might be wrong there.

[hermit]

Yes, but they where only viable in the Renraku SCIRE Arcology Network, unabled to use their abilities in the rest of the matrix. They made up the bulk of his whites, IIRC. Althought the elite whites where real Otaku that followed DEUS.

Which were created by Mirage.

AFAIK, the only other artificial Otaku created in canon was Ronin in the Technobabel novel, though that might have been the Deep Resonance, so maybe he just was a latent Otaku with late emergance.

... and that also was Mirage (the novel psychotrope is explicit there). The mystic-magical pseido-astral of the matrix' deeper spheres taken at face value (and not as an illusion created by an AI) is a 4th edition introduction.

[MK Ultra]

Ah, great, that´s the novel I meant or are there 2??? didnt read either, just have 2nd hand knowledge and stuff from modules/sorcebooks. Thanks for the intell. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

So DEUS & Mirage are really a lot like Wintermute & Neuromancer eh?

[hermit]

Ah, great, that´s the novel I meant or are there 2??? didnt read either, just have 2nd hand knowledge and stuff from modules/sorcebooks. Thanks for the intell. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

No prob. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

There're two novels on Otaku, one being Technobabel, and the other being Psychotrope (which, among others, features Hitomi Shiawase, and lesbian vampire killers). Psychotrope is very explicit in that an AI, Mirage, is creating Otaku. The point of the book, btw, is the AI making Otaku of Adults by trapping them in the Matrix until they're 'done'.

So DEUS & Mirage are really a lot like Wintermute & Neuromancer eh?

It's a bit more complicated with the origin, but essentially yes, that's what System Failure played it as. Then we got the singularity, the splitting of the AI into shards that play ghost in the machine, and the guys with biocomputer brains (and then, the otaku fanbois stepped in and made technomancers mage lite).

[MK Ultra]

O.o Are the lesbian vampire killers killers of lesbian vampires or lesbian killers of vampires (or both)? Never mind (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

On 4thE & TMs
My interpretation is, that besides all the small AIs and Sprites being fragments of the old ÜberAIs, some fragments buried much deeper into the basic structures of the new matrix. All the Ressonancerealm crap still is just an AI induced hallucination - only the AIs don´t show their hand in it anymore. So for me TMs are still Otaku - allthough crossed with electric eals, so they can produce electromagnetic signals. It still dosn´t make perfect sense, but it is easier for me to swallow.

[Summerstorm]

I would LOVE to believe that, MK... but Technomancers are clearly unmagically magical (and don't make ANY sense).

For them to make sense again: Their Sprites should be limited by their position like agents (as it is now they get the processing power from... the goddess Shiva or something)

Lose some metatechniques: Skinlink is just completely IMPOSSIBLE and the damn TRODES-Version, my GOD.

I clearly prefer Otaku's

[hermit]

My interpretation is, that besides all the small AIs and Sprites being fragments of the old ÜberAIs, some fragments buried much deeper into the basic structures of the new matrix. All the Ressonancerealm crap still is just an AI induced hallucination - only the AIs don´t show their hand in it anymore. So for me TMs are still Otaku - allthough crossed with electric eals, so they can produce electromagnetic signals. It still dosn´t make perfect sense, but it is easier for me to swallow.

I would love to believe this, but they have been clearly made out to be something magical. I talked to an author of Unwired, and he confirmed this.

For them to make sense again: Their Sprites should be limited by their position like agents (as it is now they get the processing power from... the goddess Shiva or something)

Lose some metatechniques: Skinlink is just completely IMPOSSIBLE and the damn TRODES-Version, my GOD.

I clearly prefer Otaku's

THEY ARE THE ONE.

At least, with Unwired, that's essentially what TMs are. Threading is a non-action and can be rolled as often as desired, stacking, or as often as fading can be resisted. All a TM really needs is a maxed fading attribute with all the boni he can get.

Then there's all these Echos.

Personally, I'd prefer if naked hacking with only your brain was a skill for all - because that's where otaku and TMs came from, an optional rule in 1E that was lost in 2E and brought back with the Otaku. It shouldn't require you to be fucking Keeanu Reeves the pseudo-magical mutant ubermensch, though.

Oh, and Shiva is a god, actually, god of sex, drugs and drug-related violence. It's a misconception because Squaresoft decided that would be a good name for an ice summon.

[MK Ultra]

Personally, I'd prefer if naked hacking with only your brain was a skill for all - because that's where otaku and TMs came from, an optional rule in 1E that was lost in 2E and brought back with the Otaku. It shouldn't require you to be fucking Keeanu Reeves the pseudo-magical mutant ubermensch, though.

Oh, and Shiva is a god, actually, god of sex, drugs and drug-related violence. It's a misconception because Squaresoft decided that would be a good name for an ice summon.

Of course, what oldschool hacker dosn´t, all those cloths just iritate your skin, when you shake like mad from the biofeedback. Besides, why bother, if you stay in bed all day anyway (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Serially though, no link/deck hacking is great and should be more easily available. Just make this quality that let´s you hack w/o programm cheaper or broader or even free (though I like it if it still needs some tricks). Then maybe also drop off sim modules (saying all matrix signals are sim by default needing no module to interpret), or integrate them in the datajack (or make them nigh ubiquitous in terminals as I´d do).

Re Neo
You think next matrix sorcebook TMs get Echos to use their electromagnetic body field to fly? *ducks

[PoliteMan]

Yes, but they where only viable in the Renraku SCIRE Arcology Network, unabled to use their abilities in the rest of the matrix. They made up the bulk of his whites, IIRC. Althought the elite whites where real Otaku that followed DEUS.

So how'd the Network reconstruct Deus and Mirage outside of the Arcology if their powers only work within the Arcology?

And doesn't that insinuate that anyone with the proper knowledge can create an Otaku/Techno? Which creates a serious question: how could Deus be so far ahead of everyone else that even after close to a decade of the Megas examing and dissecting every Techno they could get their hands on, no one can duplicate his technique? Heck, they don't even have to invent it from scratch like he did, they just need to understand and copy his design, which should be a lot easier.

As for Technos being magical, that might be the way they're designed but that's just...well, lets not namecall, but it would open a whole can of worms. Once you allow the Matrix to affect the magical world and vice-versa you open up a host of funky possibilities because the Matrix is designed and constructed by humans and they have direct and focused control over it. Magic follows certain limited traditions but there's sop much control over the Matrix that you have to confine it to artificial reality.

[Sengir]

Which were created by Mirage.


... and that also was Mirage (the novel psychotrope is explicit there).

While Mirage/Psychotrope was able to create otaku (and cure somebody's spinal cord via the matrix) in Psychotrope, the idea that she is the Deep Resonance and thus behind ALL otaku is at best conjecture. Also, taking things presented as possible in the novels at face value is no good idea (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Drace]

It wasnt mirage that was in the network with Deus, but Maegra. Mirage was the first of the 3 AIs.

As for how they could make Otaku while mega's can't make TMs, well simply put have you ever tried to make a nuclear bomb at home? Imagine the megas are joe average trying to make a homemade nuclear bomb while the original AIs are the nuclear physicist with a full lab, gov't funding and all the necesseties. Sure they can get the schematics and if they have a spare, take it apart, but if they try to make one from scratch... Well good luck with that, they really don't know what they are doing.

Not a perfect way of explaining it, but I think it works.

[Sengir]

It wasnt mirage that was in the network with Deus, but Maegra. Mirage was the first of the 3 AIs.

The Network came far later, it consisted of the arcology survivors who were supposed to carry DEUS fragmented code to the outside and recompile it there. Unfortunately Morgan/Magera was battling Deus when the upload happened, hence she also got sucked away into the survivor's brains and now the two parts of the network were battling each other.

[hermit]

While Mirage/Psychotrope was able to create otaku (and cure somebody's spinal cord via the matrix) in Psychotrope, the idea that she is the Deep Resonance and thus behind ALL otaku is at best conjecture. Also, taking things presented as possible in the novels at face value is no good idea

Sure, Matrix Magic is much better. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Sengir]

Sure, Matrix Magic is much better. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Because Mirage is the only mysterious phenomen ever spotted in the Matrix, so it gotta be her or magic...right

[hermit]

It's the only two phenomena mentioned, so yes. I mean, certainly you could make up that it's actually the alien AI from Alpha Centauri that was talking dirty to Neurowintermancermute and made it explode in Neuromancer, or maybe HAL 9000 from the Jovian orbit who is bored, but that'd be wholly unsupported by canon.

[Sengir]

It's the only two phenomena mentioned, so yes.

And now there is a third phenomenon in our nice fictional world, a mysterious "undercurrent" in the worldwide grid which some people can tap into...big deal.

I mean, certainly you could make up that it's actually Mirage, but that'd be wholly unsupported by canon.

FTFY (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I would LOVE to believe that, MK... but Technomancers are clearly unmagically magical (and don't make ANY sense).

For them to make sense again: Their Sprites should be limited by their position like agents (as it is now they get the processing power from... the goddess Shiva or something)

Lose some metatechniques: Skinlink is just completely IMPOSSIBLE and the damn TRODES-Version, my GOD.

I clearly prefer Otaku's

That is definitely one opinion... Not one that I happen to agree with, but there you go... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[MK Ultra]

Re Network
DEUS´ homemade Otaku where actually abled to log on to the matrix outside the SCIRE, without using a deck, they just couldnt realy do anything there, since they had no ability to use their forms and channels outside. For compiling purpose, it was sufficient, though. But Threats 2 (? or was it system failure?) states, that the older ones where already loosing that ability, as well, pushing DEUS to speed up the compilation.

[hermit]

And now there is a third phenomenon in our nice fictional world, a mysterious "undercurrent" in the worldwide grid which some people can tap into...big deal.

I mean, certainly you could make up that it's actually Mirage, but that'd be wholly unsupported by canon.

FTFY (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

So if you ignore parts of canon that you don't like, you are right. Yes, sure.

The third phenomenon is there, but taken as this, it opens that whole can of worms you previously mentioned. And it is at odds with previous canon. Mysterious undercurrent that is magic in all but name.

[Sengir]

So if you ignore parts of canon that you don't like, you are right. Yes, sure.

Once again and just for you: There is not a single line which states that Mirage equals the Deep Resonance. All there is is conjecture based on the fact she was able to create (adult) Otaku in Psychotrope.

Mysterious undercurrent that is magic in all but name.

So is nanotech, Exploit programs...

[Adarael]

It seems more likely that the Deep Resonance is something *else*, much like the Dissonance is something *else* (and not Deus), since neither of these forces have the same drives/goals that their ostensible roots do, and do not 'act' per se, save as vague will that some - and only some - otaku and technomancers claim to feel and understand.

Plus, Otaku existed before 2060, outside of systems where Mirage had access to, and knew of the Deep Resonance then. It specifically had to make contact with them. Mirage *could* make Otaku in the fashion that Deus could, but not all Otaku were Banded or Mirage-created.

[ProfGast]

Oh, and Shiva is a god, actually, god of sex, drugs and drug-related violence. It's a misconception because Squaresoft decided that would be a good name for an ice summon.

Wait.. WHAT??
Squaresoft used the name "Shiva" as an ice summon: True.
Shiva is a god. True.
God of Sex, drugs and drug-violence? Where did that come from?
I was always under the impression that Shiva, was a hindu deity who embodies the nature of the Destroyer. Hindu tri-deity has Brahma the Creator and Visnu the Preserver as the other aspects. He's also known for having many-arms (hence the "Shiva arms" surge) and sometimes also known as "Nartaka" which means the dancer (hence the name "Nartaki" for the human metavariant with..... shiva arms.)
Granted, various sects of hinduism view him in different lights, and various incarnations or associations place him with different aspects but.. Drugs? Sex? Rock and Roll? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif) First time i've heard that.

For the OP: Yes Deus (and the other Great AIs) were supposed to be able to create Otaku servants (Puck, Pax). Which is one reason that Clockwork (and a number of others) think Technomancers are trojans just waiting to serve their dark masters.

[Fatum]

For the OP: Yes Deus (and the other Great AIs) were supposed to be able to create Otaku servants (Puck, Pax). Which is one reason that Clockwork (and a number of others) think Technomancers are trojans just waiting to serve their dark masters.

This just in: Great AIs are out there, hiding behind the guise of Deep Resonance and working to eliminate humanity! As a matter of fact, Great AIs = TITANs!

[Adarael]

THIS is a much more interesting idea than "It's Mirage & Deus".