Munchkin technomancer builds Options

[Seth]

I am having a discussion with a friend about mundane hacker vs adept hacker vs technomancer.

Both of us have seen threads on this forum about killer builds for all of them. My friend remembers a thread with a technomancer capable of gaining a rating 24 stealth.

So I am kind of asking people to make the equivalent of the pornomancer. What is the most killer technomancer you can make with 400 bp, and what is the most killer build for an adept or mundane hacker.

The goal of the build is to be able to walk into Zurich Orbital and steal some money. I suspect Hacking/Exploit, Stealth and Hacking/spoof are the most important die builds, but any build that can do this is welcome.

We think that for the purposes of this you can treat Zurich Orbital as rating 10 world (System 10, Firewall 10) with lots of unpleasant software around designed to upset you.


My first two are:

Adept hacker

[ Spoiler ]

Qualities
Code slinger

Skills
Hacking 6 specialisation with exploit 2

Cyberware
Encephalon 2

Geneware
PuShEd

Adept
Hacking +3

Programs
Stealth 6
Exploit 6
Spoof 6

This gives me stealth 6
Hacking + Exploit = Skill 6 + spec 2 + adept 3 + program 6 + code slinger 2 + encephalon 2 + PuShEd 1= 22


Technomancer:

[ Spoiler ]

Resonance 5 (needed to get geneware / cyberware)

Qualities
Code slinger
Paragon +2 to probing or hacking on the fly

Cyberware
Encephalon 1

Geneware
PuShEd

Complex forms
Exploit 5
Spoof 5
Stealth 5

Skills
Hacking 6 specialisation 2
Software 4
Computer 4
Registration 4
Compiling 4

Assuming I thread my stealth to + 5 I have stealth 10 (and have to resist and/or heal 5 physical damage)
Assuming I thread my exploit to + 5 I have exploit 10 (and have to resist and/or heal 5 physical damage)
I also need to have a registered sprite to maintain stealth for me while I hack, or I am -2 on all actions

Hacking + Exploit = Skill 6 + spec 2 + complex form 5 + threaded 5 + code slinger 2 + encephalon 1 + PuShEd 1 + paragon 2 = 24 die

[Makki]

the problem is not your Exploit dice pool. you can always just probe the orbital. where the TM wins is at Stealth, when he enters against (Analyze ~7 + Firewall 10).

[Jaid]

you also forgot that the technomancer can also just have a sprite directly boost his complex forms, not just by sustaining threading. there are those who prefer to rule that this is capped to the same point as threading, but there's nothing in the rules to indicate that's the case.

[hermit]

Pay attention to what you make your Threading attribute. Since threading is a non-action, you can do it anytime and as a reaction, making your uber pools incredibly flexible, even though you will have to resist a lot of fading.

[Udoshi]

So I am kind of asking people to make the equivalent of the pornomancer. What is the most killer technomancer you can make with 400 bp, and what is the most killer build for an adept or mundane hacker.

A technomancer's strength comes from their resonance tricks, and echoes, while a hacker's strength comes from money, and having enough points free to get a high edge.

Its not a fair comparison if they can't use them(you can't submerge in chargen).

I'd like to see this challenge done in Karmagen.

[hermit]

A technomancer's strength comes from their resonance tricks, and echoes, while a hacker's strength comes from money, and having enough points free to get a high edge.

Its not a fair comparison if they can't use them(you can't submerge in chargen).

A Technomancer's strength is sprites and threading. Echos are a nice add-on, but far from required. Also, hackers are brutally hardcapped. Technos are not.

Oh, and it'sS hard to have more than one good piece of equipment at chargen.

[Ryu]

If you follow Jaid´s advice, spice it up with Resonance 6 / Complex Forms 6, and Register a sprite R9 ingame, you can get Stealth 15. Use Threading to boost Exploit/whatever you need. Since your Support Operation sprite is high-rated, you should have enough time to commit your theft.

The dp on a one-trick pony should look more like
Skill 6 + spec 2 + complex form 6 + threaded 3 + code slinger 2 + paragon 2 = 21 dice, with likely two attempts before detection. If 42 dice are not enough, add another Support Operation task or use Edge.

[Xahn Borealis]

Don't forget that hacking success is not just about big fuck off dicepools at the time of the hack. There's all sorts of tricks you can pull to prepare, like malware, researching exploits, man-in-the-middle attacks. If you wanna take on Zurich Orbital, you definitely shouldn't do it alone. I love the idea of a team of hackers working together for a monumentous hack.

[PoliteMan]

Don't forget that hacking success is not just about big fuck off dicepools at the time of the hack. There's all sorts of tricks you can pull to prepare, like malware, researching exploits, man-in-the-middle attacks. If you wanna take on Zurich Orbital, you definitely shouldn't do it alone. I love the idea of a team of hackers working together for a monumentous hack.

QFT

Okay, let get our Hacker as good as we can:
Exploit 6 + Hacking 6 + Specialization 2 + Codeslinger 2 + Encephelon 3 +PuSHeD 1 +Optimization on Commlink 1 +Botnet to help Probing the Target 5 + Adept 3 + Hotsim 2 + Edge 7 + Neocortical Nanites 3=41 dice, all exploding, although your GM will almost certainly not allow your neocortical nanites to function, so 38 exploding dice, in the door easy. 'Course this thing is probably layered so that only gets you in the front door, you can't probe the next layer without someone spotting you. Remember, most Zurich stuff has node 1, which must be hacked to get to node 2, etc and most of these have 10 nodes minimum. I don't think you could beat a layered system with just brute hacking.

Of course, it's probably easier to just shut the whole thing down using DDOS attacks. This can be done out of chargen but you need a couple weeks to set it up. You'll need a Worm with Stealth and Exploit, all with the Ergonomic and Optimization feature. Take a typical hacker rolling 12 dice for simplicity (worms will role the same). It takes 3 days (average) to do a mass probe and their stealth is high enough they shouldn't be detected. Say another day to hack into all the nodes and set up the worms. All Worms have a script that they perform mass probes, replicate themselves in the targets, then repeat the mass probe.
After the first 4 days, we have 17 worms (+1 hacker).
After the first 8 days we have 107 worms (+1 hacker)
After the first 12 days we have 647 worms (+1 hacker). At this point we can crash 1 System 10 Node. However, we're aiming a bit higher.
After 16 days we have 3887 worms (+1 hacker)
After 20 days we have 23327 worms spread out in a bunch of different bot nets. We can DDOS anything

At this point, and I'm making two presumptions. The first is that you cannot access a node that is under a DDOS attack (makes sense). Second, that a node under DDOS attack cannot maintain subscriptions to other nodes (makes sense). At this point, you need to find a way to Sniff for hidden nodes (wouldn't be a problem for anything but Zurich, since it's in space). Book a suborbital flight that'll take you near it, scan, even with a directional antenna you make need to boost your Signal. Once you've got those, you're ready.

Go to a couple of worms, say 40, and give them the corrupt program. Set half to delete information on various public or conspiracy figure (Llofwyr, Ehran the scribe, each Corp judge, etc) and the other half to delete nuyen from each crop judges account. You'll want 5 IP for this. Get a mage buddy to sit next to you to heal you. Punch through the first nine layers with DDOS attacks with a set script to have each attack staged 0.1 second after the previous one. Now you've burned the first nine levels but you still need to hack the last one, we need it functional to get our info. Have the worms do a joint hack with you, they won't add any dice because we're hacking on the fly but you'll all get in with accounts. with 33 exploding dice you should be in on your first try. Now run like mad to steal whatever data you can get, presuming somethings aren't hard encypted. Local security should be tied up destroying your worms. With 5 IP you should be able to do whatever you need. Whole thing should be done in under 15 seconds.

Congratulations, you've just hacked the Zurich Orbital. I hope you got something good because you're now the most wanted person ever and there's a non-zero chance you just crashed the world economy. Run!

I don't think Stealth will get you through some of these unless it's insane. You're not only looking at the Firewall+analyze but at least 5 Kitsune Agents in each node actively scanning incoming icons with 14-20 dice (ground banks have 16 dice, with War! should be 20) plus whatever the security hackers are doing. Hang around and they'll inevitably spot you, especially if you have to sleaze your way through 10 of these. And remember that the Zurichs also inevitably have Technos doing security with their own insane sprites.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

A Technomancer's strength is sprites and threading. Echos are a nice add-on, but far from required. Also, hackers are brutally hardcapped. Technos are not.

Oh, and it'sS hard to have more than one good piece of equipment at chargen.

I would not call Rating 10 Programs (Potentially) BRUTALLY Handicapped... and it will be much easier to get the programs (Only Money after all) over the Complex Forms... Echoes are what make an Interesting Character, in my opinion...

HAckers will start out Vastly superior in most ways at character Generation (At least in BP)... with A Hundred Karma or so, the Technomancer will start to catch up nicely, and after about 300 Karma will usually shine more often than the Hacker... Though the Hacker will likely have MUCH more utility than the Technomancer in their skill categories at that point...

As for Equipment, it really depends upon your focus as to what defines "Good Piece of Equipment." (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[Dahrken]

At this point, you need to find a way to Sniff for hidden nodes (wouldn't be a problem for anything but Zurich, since it's in space). Book a suborbital flight that'll take you near it, scan, even with a directional antenna you make need to boost your Signal. Once you've got those, you're ready.

This assume one blatant security flaw : that the inner nodes are not behind a wifi-inhibited shielding, connected to the outer defenses only through physical cabling ...

[hermit]

I would not call Rating 10 Programs (Potentially) BRUTALLY Handicapped... and it will be much easier to get the programs (Only Money after all) over the Complex Forms... Echoes are what make an Interesting Character, in my opinion...

sure, now the max pool of a hacker isn't 12, it's 16. Given an investment of well over a million (because you want response 10 too to even get close toa starting technomancer).

And we're not talking interesting to you here, we're talking rules relevant effectiveness.

As for Equipment, it really depends upon your focus as to what defines "Good Piece of Equipment.

As there are rules for startup characters and rules for taking better equipment than would otherwise be legal, no, it does not.

Don't forget that hacking success is not just about big fuck off dicepools at the time of the hack. There's all sorts of tricks you can pull to prepare, like malware, researching exploits, man-in-the-middle attacks. If you wanna take on Zurich Orbital, you definitely shouldn't do it alone. I love the idea of a team of hackers working together for a monumentous hack.

And that's OT, but given that the mancer can summon sprites, he has hacking companions he can pull out of his arse, where the hacker has to pay or convince them.

As for malware, what stops a mancer from buying a commlink putting a pirated agent and some malware into it, and using it like a hacker would? Nothing.

[PoliteMan]

sure, now the max pool of a hacker isn't 12, it's 16. Given an investment of well over a million (because you want response 10 too to even get close toa starting technomancer).

I agree here (I think). In exchange for the opportunity to have very powerful and expensive programs, a hacker has to face the fact that every corp and military group now should have those same very expensive and powerful programs. The opposition will automatically be getting the same boost that the hacker has to dump a lot of nuyen into.

Having said that, it does provide a much greater incentive for hackers to code their own programs. A rating 10 Common Use program, if you're using a nexus, should be doable in a month, Good use of downtime and saves a ton of cash. Hackers don't just need money, they also need time.

PS. Why does a Hacker need Response 10 to keep pace with a Techno? There's plenty of customizable options for Commlinks in Unwired to boost both matrix initiative and IP.

And that's OT, but given that the mancer can summon sprites, he has hacking companions he can pull out of his arse, where the hacker has to pay or convince them.

As for malware, what stops a mancer from buying a commlink putting a pirated agent and some malware into it, and using it like a hacker would? Nothing.

Technically, nothing stops a Techno from getting the same malware that a hacker does. In game I've usually found two problems.

#1 It makes Technos both karma and nuyen dependent. Technos need BP and Karma like no other group but they usually have plenty of spare nueyn after a few sessions to help cover up this problem. Buying the same programs that Hackers need decreases this option. Pirating helps, a lot actually, but it still means the Techno are chasing both the Karma and Nuyen dragons and that's really tough, especially since Technos don't have a lot of BP to put into resources early in the game.

#2 More of a meta problem, the hacking rules, especially in Unwired, are the most confusing in the game. Most players stick to one side or the other. I've met very few players who are comfortable with the rules for both threading and viruses. It's just a lot to keep in one players head, not counting the headache of twice the book keeping.

This assume one blatant security flaw : that the inner nodes are not behind a wifi-inhibited shielding, connected to the outer defenses only through physical cabling ...

Didn't think of this, mostly because I thought "no one is paranoid enough to put wireless negating in a satellite hundreds of miles above the Earth". But yes, the corp court is exactly that paranoid. Not sure off the top of my head how to get around this, my best bet would be a Vector trojan slipped into a bunch nuyen or private mail being sent to Zurich. Trojan goes exactly where you want to go and opens up an automatic connection for an agent or worm.

[hermit]

PS. Why does a Hacker need Response 10 to keep pace with a Techno? There's plenty of customizable options for Commlinks in Unwired to boost both matrix initiative and IP.

But nothing will raise their response over 6, which means their primary "attribute" for most Matrix tests is hardcapped at 6. It's+4 dice. That's why you want it.

Technically, nothing stops a Techno from getting the same malware that a hacker does. In game I've usually found two problems.

#1 It makes Technos both karma and nuyen dependent.

What's considering they use money they earn on runs and nothing else. What's exaxctly stopping a mancer to just spoof someone's link, rob them, and use that cash for their buying purposes? It's not like anything below high end military firewalls has a chance to stop them. They essentially can have all the cash they want by constantly leeching off everyone with firewalls below 8.

#2 More of a meta problem, the hacking rules, especially in Unwired, are the most confusing in the game.

Yeah, that's because they were written incoherently and break with the red thread of SR4's streamlined system. And yes, a mancer is a character that demands a lot of rules knowledge. If you don'T know your rules as a mancer player, you suck. If you do, though, you're THE ONE.

In exchange for the opportunity to have very powerful and expensive programs, a hacker has to face the fact that every corp and military group now should have those same very expensive and powerful programs. The opposition will automatically be getting the same boost that the hacker has to dump a lot of nuyen into.

That too, of course.

[PoliteMan]

But nothing will raise their response over 6, which means their primary "attribute" for most Matrix tests is hardcapped at 6. It's+4 dice. That's why you want it.

Yeah, 4 more dice helps but to my mind the difference between a hacker and a script kiddie is primarily the cyberware, which gives you a +7 pool to all hacking rolls. Besides, you can just optimize any program to get around the R6 limitation.

What's considering they use money they earn on runs and nothing else. What's exaxctly stopping a mancer to just spoof someone's link, rob them, and use that cash for their buying purposes? It's not like anything below high end military firewalls has a chance to stop them. They essentially can have all the cash they want by constantly leeching off everyone with firewalls below 8.

Sanity and in game agreement. Yeah, there's nothing to stop a techno from stealing someone's link but quite frankly, there's nothing stopping a hacker from stealing cars off the freeway (occupants included) or to stop mages from mind controlling store owners into giving them stuff for free. Most people just agree not to do this because it screws the game up. Sure, you can play without that gentleman's agreement but then it's a totally different game where powerful mages control everything from behind the scenes (there's enough of that already) and technos/hackers take over and control entire facilities. Usually we all acknowledge that the GM, in order to do his job, is the final arbiter of the karma and nuyen awards that players get.

Yeah, that's because they were written incoherently and break with the red thread of SR4's streamlined system. And yes, a mancer is a character that demands a lot of rules knowledge. If you don'T know your rules as a mancer player, you suck. If you do, though, you're THE ONE.

Totally agree, although BP/Karma/Nuyen will hold you back for a bit. It's just a ton of rules.

[hermit]

Besides, you can just optimize any program to get around the R6 limitation.

Yes, but that won't give you the response attribute increase (not to mention make these programs a lot more expensive).

Totally agree, although BP/Karma/Nuyen will hold you back for a bit. It's just a ton of rules.

Yeah, and rules that are internally as incoherent as with the rest of the system. But for a mancer player it's well worth dealing with this shit.

Sanity and in game agreement. Yeah, there's nothing to stop a techno from stealing someone's link but quite frankly, there's nothing stopping a hacker from stealing cars off the freeway

Well, yes, except that hackers aren't so good at on the fly combat hacking as mancers are. Also, you have to fence car and passenger. The mancer just hijacks the guy's link and transfers his funds to one of his accounts (or has a sprite do this).

As for mages, conbtrol manipulation spells are rare, drain intensive and have to be sustained. Besides, every place with magical security will call the cops RIGHT NOW if you mindfuck your way to wares/services, so it's really just good to get something for free from the stuffer ... and quite honestly, that's not worth the nosebleed.

[PoliteMan]

Yes, but that won't give you the response attribute increase (not to mention make these programs a lot more expensive).

I can get the matrix initiative from commlink customization and the software through optimization which is (AFB) relatively cheap and a lot cheaper than getting the response increase to 10. Basically, R10 is nice but there's plenty of ways around it. What am I missing here?

Well, yes, except that hackers aren't so good at on the fly combat hacking as mancers are. Also, you have to fence car and passenger. The mancer just hijacks the guy's link and transfers his funds to one of his accounts (or has a sprite do this).

As for mages, conbtrol manipulation spells are rare, drain intensive and have to be sustained. Besides, every place with magical security will call the cops RIGHT NOW if you mindfuck your way to wares/services, so it's really just good to get something for free from the stuffer ... and quite honestly, that's not worth the nosebleed.

Yes, maybe a specialized techno will be better at it than a hacker (unless the hacker botnets and the techno doesn't) but that's like saying your cleared the hurdle by 11 feet instead of 10. The bar to getting into some random schlub's account and ripping them off is already so low that nothing is stopping either from going mad on every system they can find. Quite frankly, with hacker cyberware, only corps and armies have any chance of standing up against an optimized techno or hacker.

And do you really want to argue that mages can't horrendously abuse MIND CONTROL to get crazy amounts of money without going on runs?

[Seth]

Yes, maybe a specialized techno will be better at it than a hacker (unless the hacker botnets and the techno doesn't) but that's like saying your cleared the hurdle by 11 feet instead of 10. The bar to getting into some random schlub's account and ripping them off is already so low that nothing is stopping either from going mad on every system they can find. Quite frankly, with hacker cyberware, only corps and armies have any chance of standing up against an optimized techno or hacker.

I think this is a very interesting point of view, and I share it. So an interesting question is "do we want our games to be this way?". In the shadowrun fiction, other cyberpunk fiction and in most movies hackers are often portrayed this way. I quite like it, and I like the fact that in most games I play in, the hard part is getting the hacker to the system as its usually isolated from the matrix. Once the hacker is in, usually the system is theirs...although occasionally it all goes horribly wrong.

In some ways the faces and the samurai's are the same. Only a serious armed force can face down an optimised troll samuari, and a good shadowrun face can talk his way anywhere.

[hermit]

Yes, maybe a specialized techno will be better at it than a hacker (unless the hacker botnets and the techno doesn't) but that's like saying your cleared the hurdle by 11 feet instead of 10. The bar to getting into some random schlub's account and ripping them off is already so low that nothing is stopping either from going mad on every system they can find. Quite frankly, with hacker cyberware, only corps and armies have any chance of standing up against an optimized techno or hacker.

Touché. Because universal open wireless makes no sense when you lay your entire life bare on it, and you have such a lack of doable security. There are already concerns about wirelessly-controlled implants such as pacemakers being hacked IRL. This WiFi FTW fad is so ... 2000s.

Once the hacker is in, usually the system is theirs...although occasionally it all goes horribly wrong.

That s much moreso true for mancers than hackers, since mancers can use sprites to hide, whereas hackers have to pray the system rolls shit on analyse rolls.

And do you really want to argue that mages can't horrendously abuse MIND CONTROL to get crazy amounts of money without going on runs?

AFBand cannot look up drains tats for mind control, but it comes with heavy drain AFAIK and is sustained (and passing through a ward breaks the spell). Yes, you can rip off the average joe that way, and probably live better than with the extremly meager pay for SR4 runs, but so does a carjacker fencing cars jacked by the rules.

[Seth]

That s much moreso true for mancers than hackers, since mancers can use sprites to hide

Sorry how do they use sprites to help them hide?

[hermit]

Teamork on stealth tests, and one type (am AFB) has some sort of power that works towards that end too.

[PoliteMan]

I think this is a very interesting point of view, and I share it. So an interesting question is "do we want our games to be this way?". In the shadowrun fiction, other cyberpunk fiction and in most movies hackers are often portrayed this way. I quite like it, and I like the fact that in most games I play in, the hard part is getting the hacker to the system as its usually isolated from the matrix. Once the hacker is in, usually the system is theirs...although occasionally it all goes horribly wrong.

Getting the hacker to the right place to hack in is great way to go but, having played SR3, I appreciate the fact that it's optional. It slows the game down immensely when everyone fights/sneaks their way into the super-secret control room, all hyped and ready to go, and then everyone has to go eat pizza for thirty minutes while the decker and the GM do their matrix thing. Great in some situations, horrible in others.

As for why we play this way, I think some of it is convenience and some is style. Yes, you can go knab cars but it's a lot easier for the GM if you just take the Johnson's job. And yes, elite covert opperatives should make enough money of one or two runs to retire but dystopia/noir poverty is just more fun to play than wealthy retirement.

In some ways the faces and the samurai's are the same. Only a serious armed force can face down an optimised troll samuari, and a good shadowrun face can talk his way anywhere.

Yes and no. Yes, in terms of realistic party play extreme specialization means you basically dominate in your area unless the GM plain starts to make stuff up. No, in terms of the more theoretical optimization we're discussing here, there's basically three-four top classes because nothing else is even in the ball park in terms of absolute power. You're either a pornomancer, a summoner mage, a techno, or possibly a hacker/face.

Touché. Because universal open wireless makes no sense when you lay your entire life bare on it, and you have such a lack of doable security. There are already concerns about wirelessly-controlled implants such as pacemakers being hacked IRL. This WiFi FTW fad is so ... 2000s.

I can't fault the creators for this. Making a realistic society is tough. Making a society that is realistically stupid is like the holy grail of worldbuilding.

AFBand cannot look up drains tats for mind control, but it comes with heavy drain AFAIK and is sustained (and passing through a ward breaks the spell). Yes, you can rip off the average joe that way, and probably live better than with the extremly meager pay for SR4 runs, but so does a carjacker fencing cars jacked by the rules.

AFB as well but just for start, the mage could mind control a hacker or techno and do everything we've discussed here.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

PS. Why does a Hacker need Response 10 to keep pace with a Techno? There's plenty of customizable options for Commlinks in Unwired to boost both matrix initiative and IP.

Simple, They don't...

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Yes, but that won't give you the response attribute increase (not to mention make these programs a lot more expensive).

That is what Response Enhancers are for...

[sabs]

Response 10 means they can run more software.

With response 10:
They can have 10 pieces of ergonomic software
they can have 9 additional pieces of software running before they incure response degredation.

That's 19 out of the 21 programs in the game.

2ndly.,. the 10 response, 10 rating program stuff is from War, and it sucks. It's badly thought out and lame.

The only thing it does is make hackers slightly less lame than the Technomancers who have access to r12 sprites, and r12 complex forms (with really a LOT of karma)

The answer really is to fix technomancers back into a reasonable level, and not make them "Gods of the Matrix! harhar you lame Hacker"